{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/land-commission", "section": "land-commission", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " decisions will be made known to-day in the remainder of these cases. The Sub-Commission has not yet given its decisions in the Cooksiown cases, 28 of which were heard on the 25th February last. MR. T. M. HEALY Can the right hon. Gentleman say how it is that the chief Land Commission can raise the rent, in as many cases in the course of a single day as the Sub-Commission can hear in three months. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/military-camp-scotland", "section": "military-camp-scotland", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "t the former answer was? § MR. BRODRICK said he was afraid he could not trouble the House a second day running with a long reply to the same Question. § MR. J. WILSON (Falkirk) said this was not the same Question at, all. § MR. BRODRICK said he had answered this precise Question yesterday. MR. T. M. HEALY was understood to ask whether the Government would establish a camp in Crete? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "MR. MACNEILL I beg to ask the Under Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether the opposition which has hitherto been offered by Great Britain and France to the blockade of the Greek coast has now been overcome? § * MR. CURZON No information can conveniently be given as to the individual views of Her Majesty's Government or of other Powers until an agreement is arrived at by all of them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.) No, Sir, I do not know that the troops of the German Empire are to be represented in Crete. § MR. MACNEILL said he desired to ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs a Question, of which he had given private notice. It was, unfortunately, a short notice, but perhaps the right hon. Gentleman would not answer it unless he knew. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ether it was true that a British cruiser had captured three Greek sailing ships carrying provisions from one part of the coast or Crete to the other; and whether the rules of the blockade extended to the transportation of provisions from one side of the island to the other? § * MR. CURZON I received the hon. Gentleman's notice of this Question only five minutes before I came into thin House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter and Cheers.", "preceding_text": " the blockade extended to the transportation of provisions from one side of the island to the other? § * MR. CURZON I received the hon. Gentleman's notice of this Question only five minutes before I came into thin House. [ Laughter. ] I think he must have forgotten the friendly appeal for sufficient notice which I ventured to address to the House in general and the hon. Member in particular. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/kingstown-town-commissioners", "section": "kingstown-town-commissioners", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " to pay, and which, since 1892, both the late and the present Governments declined to pay on the ground that the Town Commissioners did not fulfil their share in the maintenance of the roads in question. Had the agreement with the Town Commissioners been allowed to be carried out in the Bill which the hon. Member opposed last night, a sum of £750 would have been 409 paid to the Town Commissioners—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/kingstown-town-commissioners", "section": "kingstown-town-commissioners", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " declined to pay on the ground that the Town Commissioners did not fulfil their share in the maintenance of the roads in question. Had the agreement with the Town Commissioners been allowed to be carried out in the Bill which the hon. Member opposed last night, a sum of £750 would have been 409 paid to the Town Commissioners—[ Cheers. ]—but the agreement must, of course, stand or fall as a whole. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/kingstown-town-commissioners", "section": "kingstown-town-commissioners", "cue_text": "Irish laughter .", "preceding_text": " hon. Member opposed last night, a sum of £750 would have been 409 paid to the Town Commissioners—[ Cheers. ]—but the agreement must, of course, stand or fall as a whole. [ Cheers. ] MR. T. M. HEALY May I ask the Attorney General if he, will consider the advisability of sending up an indictment against the Kingstown Harbour Commissioners for a public nuisance in not keeping their roads in repair? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/kingstown-town-commissioners", "section": "kingstown-town-commissioners", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " repair? [ Irish laughter .] § * MR. SPEAKER Order, older! § MR. J. J. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.) May I ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether there was any provision in the Bill last night for paying this £750, which the Government say they cannot pay legally? § MR. HANBURY NO; but, there was an understanding between the Treasury and the Town Commissioners, which was just as good. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/kingstown-town-commissioners", "section": "kingstown-town-commissioners", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "der, older! § MR. J. J. CLANCY (Dublin Co., N.) May I ask the Secretary to the Treasury whether there was any provision in the Bill last night for paying this £750, which the Government say they cannot pay legally? § MR. HANBURY NO; but, there was an understanding between the Treasury and the Town Commissioners, which was just as good. [ Cheers. ] MR. T. M. HEALY Send up the indictment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/foreign-office", "section": "foreign-office", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "d learned Gentleman at the request of the First Lord of tin; Treasury, who had yesterday referred him to the hon. and learned Gentleman for the information. § The ATTORNEY GENERAL The Under Secretary of State for Foreign 410 Affairs is appointed by the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, with the approval of Her Majesty. His tenure of office is that of any other Member of the Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/working-mens-dwellings", "section": "working-mens-dwellings", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ment, passed a Second Reading by a large majority, he will, bearing in mind the importance attached to the Measure by working men, put the Lords' Bill down for such an early day as will insure its enactment in the course of the present Session? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY The object of the Bill is one with which everybody must sympathise, and it well deserves consideration by the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/queens-diamond-jubilee-bank-holiday", "section": "queens-diamond-jubilee-bank-holiday", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " cc410-1 410 MR. G. J. GOSCHEN (Sussex, East, Grinstead) I beg to ask the First Lord of the Treasury when the Proclamation appointing the 22nd June to be a Bank Holiday will be gazetted? 411 § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY The Proclamation of the Bank Holiday on June 22nd and the Thanksgiving Service on June 20th will be gazetted this evening. § MR. MACNEILL Does that apply to Ireland? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/queens-diamond-jubilee-bank-holiday", "section": "queens-diamond-jubilee-bank-holiday", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ion appointing the 22nd June to be a Bank Holiday will be gazetted? 411 § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY The Proclamation of the Bank Holiday on June 22nd and the Thanksgiving Service on June 20th will be gazetted this evening. § MR. MACNEILL Does that apply to Ireland? [ Laughter. ] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I presume it does, but should like to have notice of the Question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "ironical Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": "RD OF THE TREASURY On Monday, as I think I stated before, the first Order will be the Resolution in Committee of the whole House 413 for the Poor School Boards Bill . The second Order will be the Merchant Shipping (Undermanning) Bill . These will follow the I hope, comparatively uncontroversial questions which are down upon the Paper. On Thursday, the first Order will be the Berriew School Bill — "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "Bill so very shortly after the Resolution, and I would point out that the right hon. Gentleman has omitted to make any allowance for the Report stage of the Resolution. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I have assumed that a Bill brought in by universal desire on both sides of the House, which is extremely short and extremely simple, is not one to which much Parliamentary time need be devoted "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "Nationalist cries of \"Oh\"", "preceding_text": "id about half the salaries of the same class of officers in England or Ireland, and yet no equivalent was given to Scotland. He would give examples. The cost of the Local Government Board in England was £181,000; in Ireland, £131,000, and in Scotland, £11,000. Scotland had always been in favour of economy, but while her 415 expenditure was economical, that for England and Ireland was extravagant. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ivalent grant equal to the prodigality and extravagance shown in England and Ireland. § * SIR JOHN LENG (Dundee) seconded the Amendment. He said he thought that the attendance that afternoon after they had been three days mostly in a crowded House discussing the financial relations of Ireland, was an illustration of the patient, forbearing, and uncomplaining character of the Scottish people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "etract from any credit to which they might be entitled on that account, but his impression was that Scotchmen, like everybody else, were ready enough to complain when they had any real cause of complaint, and that, if there was a reason for the comparative lack of interest in the Motion, it was because there 421 was not the cause of complaint in Scotland which the hon. Member for Dundee supposed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Ireland, and it was shown that the net amount of inland revenue collected in Ireland was £6,895,000, that £4,586,000 was expended in Ireland, and that £2,300,000 was transmitted to England. In the first place he was bound to say he did not think he ever remembered seeing a document which purported to be a statement of finance 423 more inaccurate and more misleading than this particular document. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "to deal with this particular question, but he thought the hon. Member forgot the promise that had already been made by the Government. They had promised a Commission to deal with the case of Ireland, and they had advisedly added to the reference words which would include an inquiry into the position of Scotland with regard to the very matters which the hon. Member had brought, under their notice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ed that the House would feel that the inquiry which had been already promised was not only sufficient but better adapted for the purpose of the hon. Member than that which he desired. Whatever might be the position of Scotland in this matter, whether it were fair or unfair, at any rate the truth would be better ascertained, and he hoped it might be ascertained, by the inquiry which they proposed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "land in this matter, whether it were fair or unfair, at any rate the truth would be better ascertained, and he hoped it might be ascertained, by the inquiry which they proposed. [ Cheers. ] SIR HENRY CAMPBELL-BANNER-MAN (Stirling Burghs) did not think any Scotsman, however violent his patriotic feelings might be, could find fault with the tone in which the right hon. Gentleman had addressed them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "section": "votes-and-grants-for-local-purposes", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e Leader of the House some weeks ago. There was a good deal of force in what the right hon. Gentleman had said as to the inconvenience of having at the same time two inquiries almost on the same matter, and they knew now that this matter would be further dealt with, and that they would at least understand how the case stood in regard to the financial duties and obligations of the three countries. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "ce in their operations: and he did not think that any conference likely to be assembled, so far as this question was concerned, would be disposed to carve out, at present at any rate, the enormous territories of that State. As to the liquor traffic, he said that officials familiar with the West Coast of Africa and its natives declared that the evil effects of that traffic had been over-estimated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "le, not merely in the inception of these acts, but in their execution, the ideas for which all civilised nations are striving, of justice, civilisation, and freedom, have made, and are continuing to make, great progress, and that in the history of their application it can without undue self-satisfaction, be shown that this country has not been their least jealous or their least vigilant guardian. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eighbouring colonies, and that they would lose the revenue on the imported spirits, and the trade which, in the ordinary way, would come to the English colony. To his mind the Niger Company had, in the matter of the import of spirits, set a very good example indeed, because in the very large proportion of their territories the sale of, and trade in, spirits was entirely and absolutely prohibited. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ", and wherever Englishmen had to do with establishing the security and peace of the natives, there had been nothing of the villainy which they knew had occurred in the Congo State. A point which he would press upon the House, for he did not think it had been sufficiently regarded in the country, was the enormous commercial importance to this country of a proper treatment of the natives of Africa. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "blood and money in the late Ashantee expedition there were already foreign Powers endeavouring to intervene and reap the harvest of our work in our Hinterland. He thought for that reason alone the conference might do great good in Africa. But he hoped this country would remember that we were responsible for the lives and liberties and for the peace and prosperity of an enormous number of natives. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he introduction of Christianity and civilisation so called. It was because the black record of modern European encroachment in Africa had one bright spot—and that this country possessed—that he wanted England to be the first and foremost nation in the councils of the world, and to stand by her past traditions, and do everything in her power to save the natives from the baneful influence of drink. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/africa-european-powers", "section": "africa-european-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "to at once. The feeling aganst slavery and what was going on in South Africa was not dead in this country, but many people would not believe that the statements made by the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean (Sir C. DILKE) that night could be true, and, therefore, the only safety we would have in South Africa was the safety of public opinion as expressed in the House of Commons. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/local-government-board", "section": "local-government-board", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " was when a County Council proposed the alteration of a county boundary. As he had said a departmental Committee had been appointed to inquire into the organisation and work of the Local Government Board. It would meet after Easter to consider its report. Sir John Hibbert, the Chairman of the Lancashire County Council, was the Chairman of the Committee, and they could scarcely have anyone better. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/local-government-board", "section": "local-government-board", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ert, the Chairman of the Lancashire County Council, was the Chairman of the Committee, and they could scarcely have anyone better. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Evidence had been taken as to devolving certain of the work of the Board on local authorities. The question was receiving, not only careful, but sympathetic, consideration by the Committee, and more than that he would not be expected at present to say. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/felon-convicts", "section": "felon-convicts", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "iberty than they would otherwise be able to enjoy. If the Standing Order were to be regarded as a favour, surely it ought to be extended to the misdemeanant as well as to the felon. 456 § THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Mr. JESSE COLLINGS, Birmingham, Bordesley) did not think the accusation of the hon. Member of want of courtesy against the Home Secretary was warranted. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/felon-convicts", "section": "felon-convicts", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "Sir Edmund Henderson told him that some years ago a number of convicts were shot while trying to escape, and the authorities issued orders to the warders that when prisoners attempted to run away they should fire \"wide.\" A few weeks after a warder wrote to his superiors:— I beg to report that last Tuesday No. 27 tried to escape, on which, according to orders, I tired wide and hit him in the back. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/telephone-service", "section": "telephone-service", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the importance of the subject, and would not allow this company to grow into a huge monopoly, so that in a few years it would be impossible to touch it, but by competition of other companies or of the Post Office itself the commercial part of London and, if possible, the residential part of London also might have an efficient system of telephone communication, such as small town in America enjoy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/telephone-service", "section": "telephone-service", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " 600 square miles, and, of course, the service of the company within that area was at present practically a monopoly—for the present at any rate. A good telephone service, as his hon. Friend had said, was one of the necessities of business at the present day, and he was afraid it was a fact that at present England, in regard to telephone service, was not up to the level of some foreign countries. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/telephone-service", "section": "telephone-service", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "thing of the kind at Newcastle and at Cardiff, and it must necessarily be convenient for all subscribers to have one communication. One conclusion, at any rate, the Government had arrived at, and that was that they would not buy out the existing National Telephone Company. They had such a lesson with regard to the purchase of the telegraphs that they were certainly not likely to repeat the error. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/telephone-service", "section": "telephone-service", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "es, he thought, was rather small. The company had not yet carried out the conditions imposed upon them two or three years ago, but he was informed that they were taking long strides towards getting over that part of the ground. It was the determination of the Government that they should have effective telephonic communication, not only in London, but throughout the length and breadth of the land. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/telephone-service", "section": "telephone-service", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the ground. It was the determination of the Government that they should have effective telephonic communication, not only in London, but throughout the length and breadth of the land. [\"Hear, hear!\"] They could not afford, as a great business nation, to fall behind other nations. He could go further, and say it was not the intention of the Post Office to sacrifice the telephones to the telegraphs—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/telephone-service", "section": "telephone-service", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " was not the intention of the Post Office to sacrifice the telephones to the telegraphs—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and wherever, on complaint, it was found that there was a primâ facie case that (he service of the National Telephone Company was inefficient or too costly, they would institute a public and independent inquiry, and, if the case was proved, they would set up another service in its place. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ouse, however, he was precluded from bringing the matter to a vote, and as the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs had already spoken and could not speak again, he should not go at all exhaustively into the subject. There were, however, two or three things he wished to point out. They had really great difficulty in finding out what was going on and what was the policy of Her Majesty's Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "jesty's Government. It seemed to him that, according to all Parliamentary precedents, when important actions like these were taking place, and where the Government were urging the matter to be met by a Vote of Censure, they ought to put the House in as full and as complete possession of what was going on and what they contemplated as was possible. That, he complained, the Government had not done. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "as going on and what they contemplated as was possible. That, he complained, the Government had not done. [\"Hear, hear!\"] What had happened in the last two or three days? At Malaxa it was admitted there was a conflict. The allied fleets and the Turkish fleet there fired indiscriminately both on the Turks and the Christians. Surely that was the most reckless act that could possibly have been done. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": "s conference with a flag of truce, and at once they were fired upon by the Bashi-Bazouks! What happened then? When the Admirals had complaint to make of the Greeks they fired into them, but, as far as he could find out, nothing was done against the Bashi-Bazouks when they did a thing which was not recognised even by barbarous tribes as legitimate, except that a protest was made at Constantinople! "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "retary said that we were urging at Constantinople that the Turkish troops should retire from Crete, but he did not say that this was to be preliminary to any threat or determination to blockade any port in Greece, nor did he state whether the six Powers were united on the subject. He could not find that the Powers were united on anything except on some act of oppression or war against the Greeks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eceive some vague and indefinite autonomy. The Government would no doubt say that if they left the Cretans in fight matters out for themselves they would conic worse off. But how did they know that? He and his Friends believed that the time had come when England should withdraw from the Concert of Europe. They did not believe that the Government were representing fairly the opinion of the country—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Ministerial laughter", "preceding_text": "h Empire? The Government were now blockading Crete with the deliberate intention of starving it into submission. He regretted he was unable to take the opinion of the House. He had always thought that on his own side of the House they entertained a strong opinion with regard to what the Government was doing, and that they ought to accept the challenge of the Government and move a Vote of Censure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Ministerial laughter, the Front Opposition Bench Being empty", "preceding_text": "s unable to take the opinion of the House. He had always thought that on his own side of the House they entertained a strong opinion with regard to what the Government was doing, and that they ought to accept the challenge of the Government and move a Vote of Censure. [ Ministerial laughter ] He could perfectly understand that the wise and eminent Gentlemen who sat upon the Front Opposition Bench—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY: \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "on Bench—[ Ministerial laughter, the Front Opposition Bench Being empty ] —desired to choose their own time. After the belligerent speeches they had had from the Member for Montrose and the Leader of the Opposition, he was firmly convinced they would find the wishes of the Leader of the House gratified, and that before the Easter vacation they should have those Gentlemen moving a Vote of Censure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "er for Montrose and the Leader of the Opposition, he was firmly convinced they would find the wishes of the Leader of the House gratified, and that before the Easter vacation they should have those Gentlemen moving a Vote of Censure. [The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY: \"Hear, hear!\"] He had no doubt that the reason why they were not there that night was that they were preparing that Vote of Censure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "lord laughter", "preceding_text": "e that night was that they were preparing that Vote of Censure. [ Laughter. ] As an humble follower he did not think they would fulfil their duties to the Liberals in and out of that House unless they moved a Vote of Censure. Of course they knew that they would be beaten. He 470 thought, however, that it would have a great effect outside this country if it was known that the entire Liberal Party— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "ironical Ministerial laughter", "preceding_text": " laughter ]—well, they would admit that the Liberal Party constituted a large section of the people of this country, and if it was made clear that the Liberal Party as a whole was prepared and did challenge the action of the Government, it would have a great effect abroad. It would be seen that this country was split into two parties, and Lord Salisbury, who was a man of considerable intelligence—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter", "preceding_text": ", and if it was made clear that the Liberal Party as a whole was prepared and did challenge the action of the Government, it would have a great effect abroad. It would be seen that this country was split into two parties, and Lord Salisbury, who was a man of considerable intelligence—[ ironical Ministerial laughter ] —when he did not allow himself to be led by those who had not his intelligence — "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "nd Lord Salisbury, who was a man of considerable intelligence—[ ironical Ministerial laughter ] —when he did not allow himself to be led by those who had not his intelligence — [ Opposition laughter ] — would say, \"I am the Minister of England, not the Minister of Russia or of France or of Germany, and I will act as the Minister of England, and in accordance with the views of the English people.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "reign policy of the Government, nobody has acted up to that profession more laudably than the hon. Gentleman himself. It has been said of a great preacher, Whitefield, that he had delivered the same sermon 40 times and that the 40th delivery was the best. I do not say that the hon. Member has made the same speech 40 times on the subject of Crete, nor do I say that his last utterance was the best. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "mon 40 times and that the 40th delivery was the best. I do not say that the hon. Member has made the same speech 40 times on the subject of Crete, nor do I say that his last utterance was the best. [ Laughter. ] At all events, he has shown perseverance in well doing, which ought to earn the gratitude of the small fragment of his own Party who have thought it worth while to come down to the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Loud laughter.", "preceding_text": "ragment of his own Party who have thought it worth while to come down to the House. [ Laughter. ] I do not mean to detain the House at any great length on the foreign policy of the Government, more especially as we have received a half pledge from the hon. Gentleman on behalf of his absent leaders— § MR. LABOUCHERE Yes, \"hope springs eternal in the human breast.\" I only hope they will do it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ly as we have received a half pledge from the hon. Gentleman on behalf of his absent leaders— § MR. LABOUCHERE Yes, \"hope springs eternal in the human breast.\" I only hope they will do it. [ Loud laughter. ] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I gather at all events from the hon. Member, who is naturally deeper in 471 the confidence of those who are sometimes on the Front Opposition Bench— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "hope springs eternal in the human breast.\" I only hope they will do it. [ Loud laughter. ] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I gather at all events from the hon. Member, who is naturally deeper in 471 the confidence of those who are sometimes on the Front Opposition Bench— [ laughter ]—than myself, that the general intention is that a Vote of Censure shall be moved in the course of next week. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "at policy. It is sufficient to say, in the meanwhile, that he has entirely failed to comprehend the importance of the events which are going on before our eyes in Crete at this moment. He appears to think that there is a series of acts of wanton aggression on the part of the Turks, backed up by the Powers of Europe, against the peaceable and unoffending citizens of Crete and their Grecian allies. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e and unoffending citizens of Crete and their Grecian allies. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That, I gather, is a true rendering of what he means. The facts, however, are somewhat different. The facts are, that the Powers of Europe are occupied in defending a portion of the Greek population of Crete, who are Mahomedans in religion, from the attacks of those who belong to the same race but not the same religion —"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and that the whole action of the Powers during the recent weeks has been to defend against the insurgents and their allies certain positions which, if taken by the insurgents, would imperil not merely the maritime ports, but the honour and the lives of the Cretan population, of Mahomedan religion. That is described by the hon. Gentleman as England fighting on behalf of the Turks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ecent weeks has been to defend against the insurgents and their allies certain positions which, if taken by the insurgents, would imperil not merely the maritime ports, but the honour and the lives of the Cretan population, of Mahomedan religion. That is described by the hon. Gentleman as England fighting on behalf of the Turks. [ Opposition cheers. ] Surely it requires an Irishman to cheer that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "re Irishmen to be insulted? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY The hon. Gentleman knows very well that I am the last person in the House to underrate his capacity for expressing himself clearly and forcibly on anything he may desire to discuss: but I do say that to describe these operations as fighting on behalf of the Turks is the most inaccurate and inappropriate use of the English language. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ld the House, and I and other 472 Members of the Government have told the House, that the policy of the Government, is to withdraw Crete altogether, not from the suzerainty, but from the power, of the Sultan, and to give to Crete complete power of controlling her own affairs as far as the Porte is concerned. It is tolerable that such a policy as that should be described as fighting for the Turks? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "er, not from the suzerainty, but from the power, of the Sultan, and to give to Crete complete power of controlling her own affairs as far as the Porte is concerned. It is tolerable that such a policy as that should be described as fighting for the Turks? [ Cheers. ] Our policy may be right or it may be wrong, but let the language applied to it be accurate, and describe the true facts of the case. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " applied to it be accurate, and describe the true facts of the case. [ Cheers. ] The hon. Gentleman asks what is autonomy? And he appears to think that we have no right to talk of autonomy for Crete unless we are prepared to lay on the Table of the House a brand new constitution of local government, complete in all its details from the smallest to the largest. Sir, autonomy means self-government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ence on the part of the Porte. It is true that the Powers of Europe are resolved that there shall not be at this moment a scramble for fragments of the Turkish Empire, and, in forming that resolution and carrying it out, we consider that we are not merely not fighting against the cause of civilisation, and freedom, but that we are fighting for civilisation and freedom and for the peace of Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "hting against the cause of civilisation, and freedom, but that we are fighting for civilisation and freedom and for the peace of Europe. [ Cheers. ] But let not that policy—a policy which Mr. Gladstone has in his time supported by Measures not less forcible against Greece than those we are employing—let not that policy be described as fighting for the Turkish rule or the Turkish Empire in Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " fight for the provinces of Turkey in Europe which must end in a flow of blood and an amount of human misery which it is difficult to estimate 473 and impossible to describe, and which will not, we believe, curtail for one moment or prevent for one instant the gradual spread of free institutions and of settled government over all the provinces occupied by Christians in the Eastern part of Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e House into their confidence and to justify their policy. The right hon. Gentleman said that in this matter the British Government was not allied to the Turks. Would the right hon. Gentleman deny the allegation of his hon. Friend that while reinforcements were being denied to the insurgents, under the protection of Her Majesty's ships, the Turks were daily receiving munitions and reinforcements? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n of Her Majesty's ships, the Turks were daily receiving munitions and reinforcements? [\"Hear, hear!\"] In the face of such a position it was idle to tell the House that the Government were not acting as protectors of the Turks in this matter. The insurgents were fighting their own battles against the Turks, and when they were successful Her Majesty's ship Comperdown fired shells into their midst. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "s placed in the island there would have been no danger of war. It was quite clear that Lord Salisbury and the Government recognised the importance of the withdrawal of the Turkish troops, but we were so impotent in this 474 Concert of Europe that the Government had nut been allowed to carry out that policy. The Government challenged a Vote of Censure, the Party advantage of which they all foresaw—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " for Northampton had made some very severe strictures on his absent chief. [Mr. LABOUCHERE: \"No.\"] He thought those attacks should be made when the right hon. Gentleman was there to defend himself. There was only the late Solicitor General for Scotland on the Front Opposition Bench. He quoted a speech delivered by the junior hon. Member for Devonport at Lynn, in the unavoidable absence of himself—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ight hon. Gentleman was there to defend himself. There was only the late Solicitor General for Scotland on the Front Opposition Bench. He quoted a speech delivered by the junior hon. Member for Devonport at Lynn, in the unavoidable absence of himself—[ laughter ]—in which the hon. Member said that Sir William Harcourt was willing to declare, if he was not hampered by those traitors who sat around—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " of Indian meal, while this year he sold 40 tons. Mr. John Lennahan declared that the quantity of Indian meal he had sold during three months was fifteen times greater than in the corresponding period of the previous year. When the right hon. Gentleman went over there he met with a splendid reception from the people there, simply because they expected something from him which they never received. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " and they were not a desirable method of dealing with distress if it were possible to deal with it in another way. Undoubtedly they had a demoralising side; and what he felt was, that if this remedy were resorted to, the result would be that whenever a season rather less good than usual occurred, the people would always expect relief works, and would not make provision in a good for a bad season. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "trong objections which might be urged against the adoption of this particular remedy, the Government had resolved, so far as possible, to rely upon the operations of the Poor Law. Of course he foresaw at a comparatively early period that it might be necessary to relax the conditions of out-door relief in the unions to which the hon. Member had referred, and as a matter of fact they had been done. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "to establish relief works in this district. If they did, the cry for relief works for other unions when the potato crop was not so copious as usual would become almost irresistible. The hon. Member had accused him of making a promise to the people of Belmullet which he had not fulfilled. He made no promise at all, except that he would carefully consider the representations which were made to him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "se. He had not seen his way to undertake to say that a railway should be constructed, but the Government were making preparations for the establishment of a steamer service between Belmullet and Achill, which would involve the construction of piers and approaches. He hoped this work would be shortly commenced, and, so far as it went, it would contribute to the relief 480 of the existing distress. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " preparations for the establishment of a steamer service between Belmullet and Achill, which would involve the construction of piers and approaches. He hoped this work would be shortly commenced, and, so far as it went, it would contribute to the relief 480 of the existing distress. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Of course the condition of affairs in this and other unions would continue to be carefully watched. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "man had established, or was thinking of establishing, not a railway which would give the people the work of navvying, but a line of steamers from Achill to Belmullet. Between the poorest place on the Irish seaboard and a still more impoverished island in the Atlantic there was to be a service of steamers. It would be as valuable as a telephone service between Purgatory and a still warmer quarter. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e, then there would be plenty of Irish money for the relief of these miserable unions in the west of Ireland. Under the English Rating Act , relief was given to rich Durham and prosperous Yorkshire, but there was none for the unfortunate 481 people of Acill. The sum Ireland did get, £160,000, was tied up, or impounded, to be spent he understood in the salaries of a Board of Agriculture in Dublin. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "eland. Under the English Rating Act , relief was given to rich Durham and prosperous Yorkshire, but there was none for the unfortunate 481 people of Acill. The sum Ireland did get, £160,000, was tied up, or impounded, to be spent he understood in the salaries of a Board of Agriculture in Dublin. [\"Hear, hear!\"] There were boards enough in Dublin Castle, and wooden heads enough to supply a forest. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": " [\"Hear, hear!\"] There were boards enough in Dublin Castle, and wooden heads enough to supply a forest. [ Laughter. ] So far as he understood, the people of Belmullet were to \"see the British fleet at anchor,\" not in the shape of war ships, but as represented by a service of steamers, and they would get such gratification as they could out of watching the smoke trail as the vessels came and went. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ty of attempts to get another pull at the pockets of John Bull. All they wanted was to be allowed to manage their own little affairs, and expend their own money on relieving distress when their own people when in dire distress through the blight upon their crops. But this was not allowed, and short of killing a Local Government Board Inspector he did not see what the people of Belmullet could do. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/02/distress-mayo", "section": "distress-mayo", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Oh; oh!\" and laughter.", "preceding_text": "stress through the blight upon their crops. But this was not allowed, and short of killing a Local Government Board Inspector he did not see what the people of Belmullet could do. [ Laughter. ] Something in that direction might call up a sudden blaze of attention to Belmullet. Why had Crete received so much attention by shells and otherwise? Simply because the Cretans rose up and killed somebody. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/estate-duty-pictures-and-works-of-art-etc", "section": "estate-duty-pictures-and-works-of-art-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " be exempted from paying estate duty. The same was the case in many other collections he could name. The inevitable result of such, an arrangement would be that in two or three generations, after paying heavy duties, pictures would not remain in a family, but would probably go abroad. Who would then be the sufferers? They would be the public, the very persons in whoso interest the Act was passed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/estate-duty-pictures-and-works-of-art-etc", "section": "estate-duty-pictures-and-works-of-art-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "e a definite rule for the interpretation of the section; that, as was stated while the section was under discussion in Parliament, the Treasury will be disposed to interpret it with due liberality after taking the advice of experts in such matters; and that in process of time a series of precedents must necessarily be accumulated, which will be of practical importance in guiding future decisions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s for all Voluntary Schools. If he would read the Bill, he would see that in certain cases, where a Voluntary School did not belong to an association, it was excluded from the grant. With regard to what the noble Duke had said as to Lord Rosebery, he would remind him that his noble 366 Friend had nothing whatever to do with this matter, and he did not think his remark was in extremely good taste. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/exemption-from-rates-of-voluntary", "section": "exemption-from-rates-of-voluntary", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ord of it could be altered. He was rather surprised, as the Government was not powerless in the other House. He could imagine a weak Government being afraid of sending Bills back, but in the circumstances he could not understand the action of the noble Duke. He had been led to believe that some such Amendment as this would be accepted, and should certainly take the sense of the Committee upon it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/exemption-from-rates-of-voluntary", "section": "exemption-from-rates-of-voluntary", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s—some of which stood very great need of it—until the whole of the machinery to be set up under the Bill had been put into operation. It would be a work involving a considerable amount of time to form the associations, and when they were formed, they would have to frame their schemes for the distribution of the grants. He really would not take the responsibility of imposing any unnecessary delay. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/exemption-from-rates-of-voluntary", "section": "exemption-from-rates-of-voluntary", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tion of the grants. He really would not take the responsibility of imposing any unnecessary delay. [\"Hear, hear!\"] THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY apprehended that the money was not voted yet, and until it was voted there would be nothing for the Department to distribute. Could it be supposed that the Voluntary Schools were in such a state of pauperism that it was impossible to get them to wait a few days? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/extent-of-act-and-short-title", "section": "extent-of-act-and-short-title", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e was not the least desire that these associations should be constituted in any way that would give rise to distrust or to want of confidence on the part of the managers. The object of the Government was that the associations should be constituted on the initiative of the schools themselves, and it would be the desire of the Department not to impose conditions which they were unwilling to accept. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/extent-of-act-and-short-title", "section": "extent-of-act-and-short-title", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " conducted and so framed and so dealt with by the Government throughout, that Members of the House had been debarred practically from using the knowledge they possessed for the purpose of giving their advice with regard to a Bill of great importance which must affect the future of our whole educational system—introducing an era, he feared, of bitter and prolonged controversy on the whole subject. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/extent-of-act-and-short-title", "section": "extent-of-act-and-short-title", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "iscretion as to how it would appropriate the money it had granted. That might be right or wrong. That was the principle, and that was the only precedent their lordships had established. As to Amendments, the noble Earl seemed to think that if a Bill was so well drawn that it required no Amendment, it was a very bad Bill, and that if it was drawn so that it could be amended it was a good Bill. 376 "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/extent-of-act-and-short-title", "section": "extent-of-act-and-short-title", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the money it had granted. That might be right or wrong. That was the principle, and that was the only precedent their lordships had established. As to Amendments, the noble Earl seemed to think that if a Bill was so well drawn that it required no Amendment, it was a very bad Bill, and that if it was drawn so that it could be amended it was a good Bill. 376 [ Laughter. ] He did not concur in that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/land-commission", "section": "land-commission", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " as represented by the Return, could not be stated at all. § THE EARL of RANFURLY said the official answer was that the gentlemen appointed to the position of assistant Land Commissioners in Ireland were not required to pass a formal examination before being appointed. The utmost pains however, were taken to ascertain their qualifications for the functions they were called upon to discharge. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/land-commission", "section": "land-commission", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "certain their qualifications for the functions they were called upon to discharge. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He would like to add that the Chief Secretary himself interviewed every one of the new Sub-Commissioners who had been appointed, besides many hundreds of others who made application. He had to choose from a large number and he gave much time and patience and the best of his ability to the selection. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/apr/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/apr/02/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!", "preceding_text": "o Read a Second time the Military Works Bill , which would come from the Commons, on Monday; and if there was no objection, as he understood there would not be, it would be passed through its remaining stages on Tuesday. There would be a Royal Commission on Thursday for receiving the Royal assent to several Bills, after which it would be proposed that the House should adjourn until Monday, May 3. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/greece-and-the-powers", "section": "greece-and-the-powers", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "leman the First Lord of the Treasury 1076 whether he is prepared to make any statement to the House in relation to the war between Turkey and Greece, and the policy of Her Majesty's Government in relation thereto, whether the British Fleet is still engaged in the blockade of Crete, and whether that blockade is directed against the Cretan insurgents or against the Greek belligerents in the island? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/greece-and-the-powers", "section": "greece-and-the-powers", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "inst the Greek belligerents in the island? [ Cheers. ] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY in answer to the right hon. Gentleman have to say that Her Majesty's Government, like the rest of the Powers, have agreed to an attitude of neutrality as between the combatants. They are, of course, desirous, as soon as a favourable opportunity presents itself, of offering their good offices as mediators. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/greece-and-the-powers", "section": "greece-and-the-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ral of the island before the outbreak of the war, have determined that it shall be considered neutral. The blockade is maintained for the purpose of preventing opposition to their authority. MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) Will a proclamation of neutrality be issued? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I believe that that is the usual course, and no doubt it will be followed in the present case. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/greece-and-the-powers", "section": "greece-and-the-powers", "cue_text": "ironical cheers and laughter", "preceding_text": "her his attention has been called to a statement in The Standard of the 21st inst. that the Turkish Embassy in London have asserted that certain Englishmen, including officers of the British Army, have volunteered to tight on the Turkish side in the present war, and whether he is able to state that such report is true or not? MR. GIBSON BOWLES Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/greece-and-the-powers", "section": "greece-and-the-powers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and laughter.", "preceding_text": "rmy, have volunteered to tight on the Turkish side in the present war, and whether he is able to state that such report is true or not? MR. GIBSON BOWLES Before the right hon. Gentleman answers that question—[ ironical cheers and laughter ]— may ask whether the statement is true that Captain Birch and a number of Englishmen have volunteered their services and are fighting on behalf of the Greeks? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/railway-assessors-scotland", "section": "railway-assessors-scotland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "es. And there are other precedents. 1081 As regards the other point raised—namely, that the particular Resolution under which the House sat upon that Monday prevented the proceedings of which the right hon. Gentleman complained—I may point out that that rule did not prevent anything from being done which could in ordinary circumstances have been done under the Order for the Committee on the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " great opportunity in this matter of education. The Government had a great majority and enormous surpluses. But their policy in the two Bills of this Session amounted to this—that they wore not trying to help education, but to promote the interests of one class of schools. They stuffed to repletion the treasury of the Voluntary Schools, while they starved the Board Schools to make them unpopular. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ratepayer in the face again. Why should the ratepayers who, in the exercise of their own judgment and civic rights had imposed on themselves rates for educational purposes, receive no consideration? The 53 Boards of Lancashire expended close upon £303,000 on their schools; but under this Bill—this generous Bill—only four Boards would receive £291, or 10d. a child, and most of this went to Barrow. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "by all great nations on the question of education. He demanded in his Amendment that this question should be adequately dealt with on the principle of fairness to all sides, and in a comprehensive spirit which would assign a large sum to the Education Department to distribute in all centres where aid was specially required. On these grounds he begged to move the Amendment which stood in his name. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "posed on the ratepayer. Clause 84, as it, originally stood in the Bill of 1870, showed that Mr. Forster's opinion then was that the extreme cost which ought to fall upon the local authority should not be more than 10s. per child, and that if that figure were exceeded the State should make up the difference. That Bill was not, like the Education Bill of this Session, run rapidly through the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eds 6d. in the pound. The Government admit the grievance, and they propose to meet it by this Bill. But whatever may say in support of the Amendment of my hon. Friend behind me as to the injustice which we have already discussed as between Board Schools and Voluntary Schools, think the injustice inside this Bill is far greater than even the initial injustice as between the two classes of schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "ur rates. There are circumstances involving the amount of rate raised, such as the poverty or wealth of the locality, or the character of its occupants. If you had even taken the whole county, you might have had less injustice in this Bill. The only method by which you can ever arrive at a settlement of this question is by treating the schools, whether Voluntary or School Board, equally all round—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Cheers", "preceding_text": "Board School 5s., give it to another. Your own limit is wrong as to what is a necessitous school within that limit. Distribute equally within that limit, and think you should distribute outside that limit. Take a new-limit, and instead of 3d. some other figure, and treat all schools exactly alike, totally irrespective of the richness or poverty of the district in which the school may be situated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "ricts which, by the amount that 1d. in the pound would produce, proved to be necessitous. He agreed that London was hardly treated by getting no grant under the Bill, but as a London Member he could not seek redress for one injustice by inflicting another on another part of the country. He admitted that the Agricultural Rates Bill of last year, instead of diminishing an injustice, accentuated it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ed that London was hardly treated by getting no grant under the Bill, but as a London Member he could not seek redress for one injustice by inflicting another on another part of the country. He admitted that the Agricultural Rates Bill of last year, instead of diminishing an injustice, accentuated it. [ Opposition cheers. ] But he supported the Bill, believing it was a necessary and just measure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ich not a shred of foundation could be established. If London had a claim, the method which hon. Gentlemen opposite would resort to would give them little or no benefit. If they were to give the whole of the £110,000 to the metropolis it would make practically no difference to the School Board rate. The only way to reduce the School Board rate of London was to reduce the School Board expenditure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "f the education that was given in the Board Schools, and was not prepared to assert that it was extravagantly administered; but contended that if they were to give an education so much in advance of that which was intended by the Act of 1870 and the Free Education Act , then it was scarcely straightforward of hon. Members opposite to complain of the cost which that education necessarily involved. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e principle in the provisions of the present Bill. It might, be perfectly true that where they had a sliding scale of this kind they would have conditions of hardship, but the principle was right. It was not the actual rate paid, but it was the rate paid in reference to the burden which that rate threw on the ratepayers. That was the principle and basis on which the Government proposal was fixed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "lief should be given and that it could only come from the National Exchequer, he doubted whether any more equitable system could be found than that embodied in this Bill and in the Act dealing with Voluntary Schools. He hoped that most of the funds provided would be used for one 1108 purpose and one purpose only—for promoting and extending the efficiency of the national education of this country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d inequalities which would result from the operation of the Bill. It could not be supposed that they were intended or anticipated by the Government; which might be credited with honesty of intention; but which had, he thought, sadly blundered. Did they mean to remove these anomalies, and to allow Amendments to be adopted, or was the Bill to be forced through the House as its predecessor had been? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "a laugh.", "preceding_text": "e Bill which has now become law is a Bill based avowedly on the principle of redressing the inequalities which exist between Board Schools in regard to their command of public funds by giving a larger share of the grant out of the Exchequer to the Voluntary and to the Board Schools. The question was very well argued on both sides—I took no part in the discussion and can speak the more impartially—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ending it. What the Government had to deal with in the Bill which they proposed was not the expectations of Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Forster, but the actual working of the 97th Section of the Act of 1870 in the country. A great many of the injustices which the right hon. Member for Wolverhampton detailed are not the creation of this Bill amending that statute, but the creation of the statute itself. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "hear!\"] Let me take one example—that of Aston and Birmingham. It is said:—\"What a monstrous thing it is that under this Bill Birmingham will get nothing and Aston will get 2s. 6d. per child.\"' But Aston is already getting under the existing law a sum of 1s. 10d. per child, so that a greater part of the injustice which so excited the reprobation of the right hon. Gentleman is in existence already. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ckless assertions made in the course of the Debate. The hon. Member for West Islington, complained that Devon, which was a wealthy county, got more relief than Cornwall, a poor county. I have taken the trouble to have the amount calculated. I find, so far from, this being the case, that Devon, with double the population of Cornwall, receives only £945 under the Bill, whereas Cornwall gets £2,711. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "grant will be dispensed by the Committee of Council upon figures which are thoroughly trustworthy. I hope the House will now consent to Read the Bill a Second time. When the Committee stage is reached, if any hon. Members can suggest amendments under which the relief given can be made to operate in a more just manner, I can assure them that such amendments will receive most careful consideration. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/apr/26", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/apr/26/elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "section": "elementary-education-act-1870-amendment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " give relief to the country districts, and that they should now be called upon to pay £120,000 to other parts of the country for what the did not believe would be any great step forward in educational progress, but would really lead to greater anomalies in the future, inasmuch as it was founded on great injustice as between the different classes of schools and the different classes of ratepayers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/house-of-commons-messengers", "section": "house-of-commons-messengers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "r where they have succumbed to temptation? § THE UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR WAR (Mr. BRODRICK,) Surrey, Guildford The statement made by me conveyed the opinions officially expressed by those responsible as to the desirability or the reverse of appointing retired soldiers as messengers in the House of Commons. No instances were given, and I am not without hope that the view may be modified. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/house-of-commons-messengers", "section": "house-of-commons-messengers", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "onsible as to the desirability or the reverse of appointing retired soldiers as messengers in the House of Commons. No instances were given, and I am not without hope that the view may be modified. [\"Hear, hear!\"] § GENERAL LAURIE asked whether the present staff had given satisfaction? § MR. BRODRICK I am not responsible for them, but I should say the present staff was admirable. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers .", "preceding_text": "s in the island. § MR. DILLON said that his question referred not to Christian troops, but to the Christian insurgents. § MR. CURZON The hon. Member tries to establish a parity of position between the Turks and the Christians. No such parity exists, because there are no Christian troops in the island. § MR. DILLON Then I understand that the English Admirals are on the Turkish side. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/royal-residence-in-ireland", "section": "royal-residence-in-ireland", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "mpossible to promise any such legislation having regard to the pledges we have already given as to the expenditure of public time in the forthcoming Session of Parliament. § MR. DAVITT Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Nationalist feeling in Ireland is strongly opposed to the 106 idea of a Royal Residence in that country? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY No, I am not aware of that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/german-and-belgian-commercial-treaties", "section": "german-and-belgian-commercial-treaties", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " German States, will cease to be in force on July 30, 1898. Her Majesty's Government have intimated to the German Government their desire to negotiate a new Commercial Treaty with Germany, and until these negotiations have made some advance it would be premature to express any opinion as to the effect which the determination of the Treaty of 1865 will have as regards the Customs Union in Germany. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/chakdara-garrison-india", "section": "chakdara-garrison-india", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ously. Enemy following up attacked north side of camp. General Blood having arrived and assumed command wires this morning, columns under Meiklejohn and Goldney advanced at dawn and attacked enemy on made road and on hills. Attacks brilliantly executed, and, so far as could be seen from Malakand, completely successful. Officers previously wounded doing well, except Lamb and Costello doing fairly. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/chakdara-garrison-india", "section": "chakdara-garrison-india", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "sumed command wires this morning, columns under Meiklejohn and Goldney advanced at dawn and attacked enemy on made road and on hills. Attacks brilliantly executed, and, so far as could be seen from Malakand, completely successful. Officers previously wounded doing well, except Lamb and Costello doing fairly. [ Cheers .] I have a further telegram in these terms:—\"Chakdara relieved; garrison safe.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "at the same time that 109 there was serious opposition taken to it in its present shape, and the Government could not face the expenditure of time necessary to deal with the Measure in the present Session. The Government must therefore postpone the Bill. He earnestly hoped that next year, at all events, the Government would be in a position to settle this long standing and perplexing controversy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/water-famine-east-of-london", "section": "water-famine-east-of-london", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "Brentford) asked the Secretary to the Local Government Board whether his attention had been called to a letter in The Times from the Vicar of St. Jude's, Whitechapel, giving details of the water famine in the East-end of London, and whether an assurance of the Deportment would be given that the best endeavour would be made to minimise as far as possible the sufferings of these unfortunate people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/water-famine-east-of-london", "section": "water-famine-east-of-london", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " date was November 1, but he thought its provisions might be made to apply to any water famine during the present summer. § THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. CHAPLIN,) Lincolnshire, Sleaford said that he had considered this point since he had received information with reference to the water supply, and if it was possible to do so he would take steps in the direction indicated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "section": "sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "t 1897) Search Help HANSARD 1803–2005 → 1890s → 1897 → August 1897 → 2 August 1897 → Commons Sitting → QUESTIONS. SALE OF FOOD AND DRUGS BILL. HC Deb 02 August 1897 vol 52 cc111-2 111 § MR. CHAPLIN , in asking leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the sale of food and drugs, said it was unusual to do so at this late period of the Session. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "section": "sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "cue_text": "Ironical laughter .", "preceding_text": "7 → 2 August 1897 → Commons Sitting → QUESTIONS. SALE OF FOOD AND DRUGS BILL. HC Deb 02 August 1897 vol 52 cc111-2 111 § MR. CHAPLIN , in asking leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the sale of food and drugs, said it was unusual to do so at this late period of the Session. [ Ironical cheers .] There was, however, no intention whatever of proceeding with it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "section": "sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "cue_text": "Ironical laughter and cheers .", "preceding_text": " 1897 vol 52 cc111-2 111 § MR. CHAPLIN , in asking leave to introduce a Bill to amend the Acts relating to the sale of food and drugs, said it was unusual to do so at this late period of the Session. [ Ironical cheers .] There was, however, no intention whatever of proceeding with it. [ Ironical laughter .] It was merely brought forward in fulfilment of a pledge given earlier in the Session. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "section": "sale-of-food-and-drugs-bill", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "d in fulfilment of a pledge given earlier in the Session. [ Ironical laughter and cheers .] The object of the Bill was to give effect to recommendations which were made by the Committee which sat on the question of food and drugs; and his object in introducing the Bill now was in order that during the recess they might be able to ascertain the general drift of opinion with regard to the Question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "sh was the great maritime language of the world, and it was perhaps even more necessary that foreign naval officers should be acquainted with the English tongue than that British naval officers should be acquainted with foreign tongues. But if the First Lord of the Admiralty would turn his attention to this matter, he thought he would be inclined to admit that there was some room for improvement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he men had passed into the Navy. He quite agreed that every inducement 114 should be given to officers to acquire foreign languages, and he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that the matter received, and would continue to receive, the full attention of the Admiralty, and that they would be very glad if to a larger extent the officers of the British Navy were acquainted with foreign languages. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " in publishing. He was quite aware that great care was required in the preparation of the Report; but he sometimes thought the gain to the public would be greater if more promptitude in publication were secured, even at a little sacrifice of accuracy in minute details. He certainly thought the staff of the Local Government Board wanted strengthening, not in ability or in industry, but in numbers, "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s those of other candidates. In making selections he had always made it an absolute condition that the candidate should possess sufficient experience to enable him to perform the duties efficiently, but he was not prepared to say that experience was the only qualification to be considered. He attached great importance, for example, to the character and education of gentlemen seeking appointments. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e have discovered the cause of the trouble and the pressure is now excellent. He hoped now that this trouble, which, of course, was a very grave one at this time of the year, would be at an end. No efforts on his part to bring that about would be spared, and every step would be taken by the Board to prevent a water famine, which in the part of London affected would be nothing short of a calamity. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers .", "preceding_text": "that the government of Ireland would be run on an even keel, and that the Party which used to be the Party of ascendancy would no longer control the machinery of the Castle. He had no hesitation in saying that every one of these expectations had been disappointed, and now, after nearly two years, the right hon. Gentleman had absolutely failed to carry out the fair promises of his speech at Leeds. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "now, after nearly two years, the right hon. Gentleman had absolutely failed to carry out the fair promises of his speech at Leeds. [ Nationalist cheers .] He had undertaken to kill Home Rule with kindness, but knowing, as the right hon. Gentleman did, the fidelity of the Irish people to the Home Rule sentiment, one would expect that he would have known it would have taken a good deal of kindness. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ood deal of kindness. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He should await with curiosity the catalogue of the measure of kindness by which the right hon. Gentleman expected to carry out his undertaking. He should recall to the right hon. Gentleman's mind his famous tour to the West of Ireland. According to his own account he was received with kindness and courtesy at Belmullet. What had he done for Belmullet? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ". Gentleman that his Land Act, except in the case of those clauses which allowed farmers, not previously allowed to do so, to enter the Land Court, had nothing whatever to do with the lowering of rents, and he had proved what had been their contention, that the Act had failed to afford that just contribution to the necessitous which they were entitled to expect from any revision of the Land Acts. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"In what part of Ireland?\"", "preceding_text": "Commission, although it had never sat, had had the effect of paralysing the sub-Commissions. A gentleman belonging to the Tory Party in Ireland, and closely connected with the landlord section—whose name, of course, he would not mention for any consideration—had told him that since the appointment of the Commission rents had been raised 10 per cent. What was more, he had special means of knowing. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter and \"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "an belonging to the Tory Party in Ireland, and closely connected with the landlord section—whose name, of course, he would not mention for any consideration—had told him that since the appointment of the Commission rents had been raised 10 per cent. What was more, he had special means of knowing. [An HON. MEMBER: \"In what part of Ireland?\"] Well, he would tell his hon. Friend in the smoking room. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " a letter written by an eminent gentleman who had stood on many a platform in support of the Government's Irish policy; and the right hon. Gentleman must see in a letter of that kind, which was most certainly sincere, plain proof that all his efforts to conciliate that Party must fail unless he was prepared to be merely the outward and visible representation of politicians of the Dr. Traill type. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ll his efforts to conciliate that Party must fail unless he was prepared to be merely the outward and visible representation of politicians of the Dr. Traill type. [ Laughter .] He was obliged to the House 132 for having listened to him. There was one great objection he had to the Chief Secretary: it was a personal objection. He would rather have a Chief Secretary whom he could dislike and fight. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "tened to him. There was one great objection he had to the Chief Secretary: it was a personal objection. He would rather have a Chief Secretary whom he could dislike and fight. [ Laughter .] He would like a Chief Secretary who would give him genuine sport. But when he got up in his place, he saw the countenance of a right hon. Gentleman, with a charming personality beaming across the Table at him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ntleman, with a charming personality beaming across the Table at him. [ Laughter .] He could not help thinking that if the Chief Secretary were only left to his own inclinations, and could give the go-by to the Castle officials, he might achieve a reasonable success. As it was, he had done tolerably well, belonging, as he did, to a class of politicians whom O'Connell used to call \"beggar-shavers\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ld give the go-by to the Castle officials, he might achieve a reasonable success. As it was, he had done tolerably well, belonging, as he did, to a class of politicians whom O'Connell used to call \"beggar-shavers\" [ Laughter .] What he meant was that the right hon. Gentleman reminded him of the apprentices who were allowed to shave beggars, taking no fees in consideration of the gashes they made. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers .", "preceding_text": " he had done tolerably well, belonging, as he did, to a class of politicians whom O'Connell used to call \"beggar-shavers\" [ Laughter .] What he meant was that the right hon. Gentleman reminded him of the apprentices who were allowed to shave beggars, taking no fees in consideration of the gashes they made. [ Laughter .] He objected to the right hon. Gentleman trying his 'prentice hand on Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "e allowed to shave beggars, taking no fees in consideration of the gashes they made. [ Laughter .] He objected to the right hon. Gentleman trying his 'prentice hand on Ireland. [ Laughter and cheers .] At the same time, he had no doubt that if his abilities, and his genuine desire to do right, with perhaps some show of resistance to the Castle officials, could make him a success, he would be one. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "bt that if his abilities, and his genuine desire to do right, with perhaps some show of resistance to the Castle officials, could make him a success, he would be one. [ Laughter .] In the meantime he would press his little Bill on the right hon. Gentleman, and ask him to answer him all about the Land Commission, and to say also whether he agreed with him in his character of Dr. Traill, and so on. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "l prosperity of Ireland; and the Government would, of course, be very glad if they were able by kindness to kill Home Rule. But whether that was so or not, he thought it would be their duty to persevere with their policy, no matter whether that policy was received with gratitude or not. Well, the Government had carried out the policy which he then announced—he trusted with some degree of success. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers .", "preceding_text": "s hands and transfer it to the hands of Government officials, and, though they were anxious to avoid having to do this, they had been compelled to do it in a number of cases. [Mr. KILBRIDE asked whether the cases in which the administration of the Acts had been taken out of the hands of the unions had all occurred in Ulster?] He believed that nearly all, if not all, had occurred in that province. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "agine a better argument for an Inquiry than the statements of hon. Members opposite and their friends? Was it not obvious that the landlords having made strong representations and the tenants being equally dissatisfied—the Commissioners themselves being the subject of attack from both sides—in the interest of the Commissioners themselves, it was desirable that an impartial Inquiry should be held? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers", "preceding_text": "partial Inquiry should be held? [\"Hear, hear!\"] Although such an Inquiry had been condemned by the hon. Member for East Mayo, it had not been condemned by all the individuals representing the tenants in the North of Ireland. For instance, at the meeting of the Liberal and National Union at Belfast a resolution was passed heartily welcoming the appointment of a fairly constituted Commission—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he Land Commission attacked in this way from both sides without feeling that, whatever disadvantages might attach to an Inquiry into the proceedings of a judicial body, those disadvantages were less than would result if they allowed this condition of things to continue, without any effort whatever to get an authoritative pronouncement on the grounds on which the sub-Commissioners were proceeding. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Nationalist laughter .", "preceding_text": "ion of things to continue, without any effort whatever to get an authoritative pronouncement on the grounds on which the sub-Commissioners were proceeding. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That was the reason why they thought it their duty to appoint a Commission, and he thought that even hon. Members opposite, with very few exceptions, had not complained of the fairness of the personnel of the Commission. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter and Nationalist cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " Englishman and a Scotchman. He then came to the Irish Members of the Commission. The hon. Member contended that Dr. Traill represented the landlords rather than the tenants. When the Commission was started the Government had hoped to find impartial men in Ireland, but further consideration made it painfully evident that it would be absolutely impossible to obtain two perfectly impartial Irishmen—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "presented the landlords rather than the tenants. When the Commission was started the Government had hoped to find impartial men in Ireland, but further consideration made it painfully evident that it would be absolutely impossible to obtain two perfectly impartial Irishmen—[ laughter and Nationalist cries of \"Oh!\"]—who, being such, would also be recognised as being impartial by both sides. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "rtial by both sides. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He did not say there was not an impartial man in Ireland, but there was no man who was not known to have held opinions inclining in one direction or the other. The Government had endeavoured, therefore, to appoint two Irishmen, one of whom should be an acknowledged representative of the landlords and the other a recognised representative of the tenants. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "r. The Government had endeavoured, therefore, to appoint two Irishmen, one of whom should be an acknowledged representative of the landlords and the other a recognised representative of the tenants. [ Cries of \"No, no!\"] Any fair-minded man would hold that Mr. Fottrell, who was a very able man indeed, was identified with the cause of the tenants rather than with the cause of the landlords. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "was a very able man indeed, was identified with the cause of the tenants rather than with the cause of the landlords. [ Cries of \"No, no!\"] He had absolute confidence himself in the impartiality of this Commission. The personnel had been selected with great care and trouble, and he did not believe that a better tribunal could be found to inquire into the difficult matter committed to them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "or the 140 whole Irish policy. But the hon. Member for Derby had brought some rather interesting matter into the discussion, and he would like to point out that the housing of the labouring classes in Ireland had much improved, and was an improvement on what it was in many parts of England. That this was so was due to the fact that the Act had been administered by Nationalist Boards of Guardians. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ulged the hope that between this and next Session the right hon. Gentleman would devote some attention to the subject, and do something to settle a great grievance. With regard to the Land Commission, the right hon. Gentlemen said the Government were trying to satisfy the agitation on both sides, but if the agitation had been on the part of the tenants would a Royal Commission have been obtained? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ented in future they would be prevented with the least possible violence. § SIR THOMAS LEA (Londonderry, S.) wished to say a few words with regard to the administration of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Gerald Balfour) in Ireland. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had made a mistake in agreeing to the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the working of the Land Acts in 142 Ireland—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rry, S.) wished to say a few words with regard to the administration of his right hon. Friend (Mr. Gerald Balfour) in Ireland. He thought the right hon. Gentleman had made a mistake in agreeing to the appointment of a Royal Commission to inquire into the working of the Land Acts in 142 Ireland—[\"Hear, hear!\"]—because he believed that it would not have the effect of satisfying either Party. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ly poorly represented. He hoped that this matter would have the careful consideration of the Chief Secretary, because North and South Derry alike cried out against the present state of things. He did not see why the opinions of the local authorities, the Board of Guardians should be ignored, and he trusted that in making any further appointments the Chief Secretary would bear these facts in mind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "oks. He had wished to make his remarks as short as possible, and if he might make a suggestion in reply it was that before he proceeded to lecture an English Member on the propriety of taking part in an Irish discussion, the hon. and learned Gentleman should qualify himself by becoming the representative of a popular constituency and not creep into the House by the back door of Dublin University. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ut he was in error. The right hon. Member ought to do more for his salary. He hoped that before very long the right hon. Gentleman would come down and pay some personal attention to the country, notably to the western portion of the district he represented. If he did so he expected they would get more work and less promises from the right hon. Gentleman. After all fine words buttered no parsnips. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "section": "supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Order!\"", "preceding_text": " Bill would affect. He was surprised therefore that no explanation had been made. Certainly the right hon. Gentleman created an impression that he would attempt to draft an Amendment to safeguard the interests of these officials. It was hardly honourable to go back from 163 that pledge and allow the Bill to proceed. If he had thought the right hon. Gentleman was going to play a trick of that kind—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "section": "supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and \"Agreed!\"", "preceding_text": "l recollect that this Bill does not dispose of the money that will be saved by abolishing the Judgeships and the consequent reduction of staff. It will be necessary, I imagine, next Session for my right hon. Friend to propose some allocation of the money; and I undertake, if it should be found possible to deal fairly with these persons under the existing law, that their cases shall be considered. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "section": "supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "cue_text": "cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "ght hon. Friend to propose some allocation of the money; and I undertake, if it should be found possible to deal fairly with these persons under the existing law, that their cases shall be considered. [\"Hear, hear!\" and \"Agreed!\"] § MR. FLYNN said, that having proposed this Amendment on Saturday, when they got from the right hon. Gentleman a distinct assurance, as he understood—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/aug/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/aug/02/supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "section": "supreme-court-of-judicature-ireland-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " ever before offered in similar circumstances. He 168 would have thought that that offer would close the Debate; but, instead of that, hon. Members rose, one after the other, to continue the discussion. The Chancellor of the Exchequer's suggestion was a conditional suggestion, and he trusted that hon. Members opposite would not do so ill a service to their clients as to compel him to withdraw it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/aug/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/aug/02/foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "section": "foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "man, and perhaps an incompetent man. At all events, servility and incompetence were not infectious, and the Members who sat with him, and signed the Report were as competent to judge of evidence as any Member of that House. If that evidence were not disproved, this Bill was perfectly unnecessary—was a bogus and a sham. The Bill could do no good, and it must do harm to the commerce of the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/aug/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/aug/02/foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "section": "foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "red me because I had criticised a Bill of his on the pollution of the river streams. The noble Lord who has just sat down wont into questions of sugar bounties, which are perhaps a little antiquated now. Then he turned round upon me and attacked me for what I said on the Workmen's Compensation Bill . 72 § * LORD FARRER No, I praised it. § * THE PRIME MINISTER Well, it is the same thing. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/aug/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/aug/02/foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "section": "foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter and \"No!\" from Lord FARRER.", "preceding_text": "ghter .] My only remark on these observations is that they do not seem to me to be very relevant to the question now before the House. The noble Lord who had just sat down was preaching a doctrine which he has preached for many a day. But the stream of time has gone past him, and he finds himself, as the somewhat belated advocate of a rather outworn doctrine, standing preaching in the wilderness. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/aug/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/aug/02/foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "section": "foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": "n such a thorny and difficult question. I only wish to point out that the noble Lord is taking up a position which in point of time is rather outworn, and that those who belong to the party of the supremacy of the consumer no longer have the undisputed dictation which they formerly enjoyed. The noble Lord gave us a refreshing flood of abstract principles to guide us through our hot and weary way. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/aug/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/aug/02/foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "section": "foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "on—and I find it there without the slightest chance of its being abandoned—the only thing you can do in consistency and justice to your own people is to deal with the foreigner and his prison-made goods precisely on the principles on which you deal with English prison-made goods. Being satisfied of that small fact, in this conflict of high doctrine I shall vote for the Second Reading of the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/aug/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/aug/02/foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "section": "foreign-prison-made-goods-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "rine I shall vote for the Second Reading of the Bill. [\"Hear, hear!\"] THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY The noble Marquess said that this principle was upheld by both Parties in the State. I suppose he was referring to the action of the late Government. In that case, I am bound to follow an example which has often been set on the other side, by saying that in that matter I did not agree with my Party. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/poor-law-schools", "section": "poor-law-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " to inquire as to the prevalence of ophthalmia in the schools and also to the ventilation and warming of the rooms in these institutions as a preliminary step to determining the question of cubic space. Other matters, which can only be dealt with by legislation, are receiving the attention of the Board. I apologise to the House for the length of my reply, but it was impossible to make it shorter. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/lanarkshire-militia", "section": "lanarkshire-militia", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "er. I may, perhaps, remind the hon. Member that, with every desire to consult local interests, the military efficiency of a corps must be the paramount consideration in deciding where its training shall take place. § MR. J. WILSON (Falkirk) May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will exchange an English for a Scottish Regiment, in order that they may get the benefit of the fresh air of Lanark moor? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/lanarkshire-militia", "section": "lanarkshire-militia", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "of a corps must be the paramount consideration in deciding where its training shall take place. § MR. J. WILSON (Falkirk) May I ask if the hon. Gentleman will exchange an English for a Scottish Regiment, in order that they may get the benefit of the fresh air of Lanark moor? [ Laughter .] § MR. BRODRICK It is not a question of giving the militiamen fresh air, but of military efficiency. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "vision for the exemption from rates of Voluntary Schools.\" The right hon. Gentleman, who was received with cheers, said:—Mr. Low-ther, among the manifold blessings showered upon us by the Opposition during the course of the Debates upon last year's Education Bill was a plentiful stock of good advice. The Members on the Front Bench opposite and Gentlemen sitting in various other parts of the House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " I misrepresent the views laid before us, especially by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Fife, when I say he was peculiarly insistent on the wisdom of the policy of bringing in a short Bill rather than a comprehensive Bill. When the Opposition give you advice in regard to the length of time a particular discussion will take, one has to regard that more or less as the advice of experts—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "rehensive Bill. When the Opposition give you advice in regard to the length of time a particular discussion will take, one has to regard that more or less as the advice of experts—[ laughter ]—and when they prophecy that any particular Measure will last a very long time they have the satisfaction, which few prophets have, of being in the position of seeing their own prophecy adequately fulfilled. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "nterest that when the Government brought in the Measure they were resolved to bring in for some relief to Voluntary Schools out of Imperial resources, that Bill should be so carefully restricted in its scope that there should be no danger of its defeat merely through 928 lapse of time or through the multiplication of the subjects of debate which Gentlemen opposite are so ingenious in discovering. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " they were resolved to bring in for some relief to Voluntary Schools out of Imperial resources, that Bill should be so carefully restricted in its scope that there should be no danger of its defeat merely through 928 lapse of time or through the multiplication of the subjects of debate which Gentlemen opposite are so ingenious in discovering. [ Cheers .] That pledge the Government had adhered to. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " to necessitous Board Schools, to decentralise the work of the Education Department, to deal with the special questions of secondary education, and to set up such an educational machinery in the country as would unify the system of primary education with the system which exists or ought to be set up with regard to secondary education. That was a comprehensive scheme; I think it was a good scheme. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " character. I admit the temptation to add to the question of the relief of Voluntary Schools the question of the relief of necessitous Board Schools was a most tempting one—tempting, at all events, to Gentlemen on this side of the House. That was part of the scheme of last year. It is undoubtedly an object which ought at an early date to be dealt with, in our judgment, by the Imperial Parliament. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"' Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ulars from the problem raised by the relief of the necessitous Voluntary Schools. The scheme which applies to the one does not apply to the other, and we feel we were light in adhering to the policy announced last year—namely, that we would not weight our Bill, in so far as it dealt with Voluntary Schools, by extraneous matter, however important and however urgent that extraneous matter might be. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers .", "preceding_text": "rgent that extraneous matter might be. [\"' Hear, hear!\"] Those are reasons which will, I trust, satisfy my hon. Friends on this side of the House. They will see that if, 929 as is possible, though I fear it is hardly probable, the Bill we are introducing slips rapidly through all its stages, in that ease there will be no difficulty in bringing forward the farther Measure to which I have referred. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "tary Schools a simple Measure on which all sides may be agreed, hon. Gentlemen find in such a Bill an endless theme for discussion and Debate, then there is not a man on this side, I venture to say, who will not thank the Government for the foresight they have shown in this matter and will not be obliged to them for not having imperilled one great subject by allying it with another great subject. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " desirous that in this Bill should be included provisions for aiding ratepayers in the districts of necessitous Board Schools. I have never been able to attach any credence to those statements. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said so in the Address—I hear him whisper. I am always ready to accept his statements, but even that statement slipped from him, it seemed to me, in a moment of incaution. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "slipped from him, it seemed to me, in a moment of incaution. [ Laughter .] But, after all, what are we to do? We are asked by the right hon. Gentleman and by those who wish to include provision for necessitous Board Schools, to relieve the most hard-pressed and the most deserving class of ratepayers. On this side of the House we have always been in favour of relieving the hard-pressed ratepayers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ", what are we to do? We are asked by the right hon. Gentleman and by those who wish to include provision for necessitous Board Schools, to relieve the most hard-pressed and the most deserving class of ratepayers. On this side of the House we have always been in favour of relieving the hard-pressed ratepayers. [ Cheers .] It is quite new to me that that is the favourite doctrine of the other side. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers 930 and Opposition cries of \"Landlords!\"", "preceding_text": "payers. [ Cheers .] It is quite new to me that that is the favourite doctrine of the other side. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Why, Sir, not only did the right hon. Gentleman the late Minister for Education do nothing in this direction when he was in office, but how did we occupy a largo part of last Session? We occupied it in listening to denunciations from the other side of our efforts to relieve ratepayers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "n? We occupied it in listening to denunciations from the other side of our efforts to relieve ratepayers. [ Cheers 930 and Opposition cries of \"Landlords!\"] Wait a, moment, I am coining to that. There was especially one eventful week in which we were discussing in Committee the Bill of my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, whom we are all so glad to see hack amongst us—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ussing in Committee the Bill of my right hon. Friend the President of the Local Government Board, whom we are all so glad to see hack amongst us—[ cheers ]—in which it is safe to say there was not one hour of the day or night in which you had not a good prospect, if you came within the walls of this House, of hearing the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the Opposition explaining at great length—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers .", "preceding_text": "ed to dull the pleasure which he gave us, custom never staled him, he went on with a splendid and persevering uniformity, and so enamoured was he of the topic that when the opportunity was unfortunately taken from him in this House by the conclusion of our Debates on the Bill, the whole staple of his speeches in the country through the autumn consisted in dwelling again upon that well-worn theme. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e Bill, the whole staple of his speeches in the country through the autumn consisted in dwelling again upon that well-worn theme. [ Laughter and cheers .] And are we to be now told that, as we were kept up night after night in 1896 to prevent relief from going into the pockets of the landlords, we are to be kept up night after night in 1897 in order to prevent relief from going to the ratepayers? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e topics—that of the relief of schools from the pressure of the rates—I think it will be universally admitted by those who have given any study to the question that the present position of Voluntary Schools in relation to the rating authority is one of great inequality, and not only inequality but uncertainty, and in our opinion the inequality and uncertainty should both at once be put an end to. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "low their value, while in the remainder the full rating permitted by law is exacted. Now, a system so different in its principles and so uncertain in its incidence is one which really cannot stand criticism, and we propose, by a simple enactment, to put Voluntary Schools in the position already occupied by scientific and learned institutions, and say that they shall not be liable to rates at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t a state of things which can be defended, and, observe, it is felt most by the very class of schools we most desire to assist—I mean the 933 schools which are so efficiently conducted that they could earn a greater grant, but by the poverty of their surroundings and the circumstances in which they find themselves are debarred from obtaining that advantage which is given to their richer brethren. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ls that whatever else happened in consequence of that withdrawal, they and their interests at all events should not he allowed to suffer. That pledge, Sir, we have fulfilled in the present Bill. Whereas the Bill of last year only allocated 4s. per child in average attendance to the Voluntary Schools, my light hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has permitted me to raise that amount to us.—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ise that amount to us.—[Cheers.]—the result of which will be that whereas the most that would have been spent last year upon Voluntary Schools had the Bill become law would have amounted to £489,000, the amount that will be spent in the next financial year when this Bill becomes law will be £610,500, a large increase, partly, no doubt, due to the increasing number of children in Voluntary Schools—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "year when this Bill becomes law will be £610,500, a large increase, partly, no doubt, due to the increasing number of children in Voluntary Schools—[\"Hear, hear!\"]—but due in a still larger measure to the additional 1s. grant which my right hon. Friend has sanctioned. Therefore, Sir, that pledge, at all events, has been, as I think will be admitted on all sides, amply satisfied by the Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "vernment Department to make-a comparative estimate of all the schemes for Voluntary Schools in England and Wales without any assistance appears to us to throw upon that Department a burden which it can hardly be asked to bear. For that reason and other reasons, to which I shall refer immediately, we propose to encourage to the best of our ability the formation of associations of Voluntary Schools—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "ry friend of the Voluntary system, will have every reason to congratulate himself upon the result which this Bill is likely to produce. I ought to say that so strongly do we believe in the importance of association that we have put in a special provision enabling the Education Department to refuse any assistance out of the aid grant to any school which unreasonably refuses to join the association—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "e are many town schools which ought to get much less than 5s., and I hope that under the Bill they will get less. But undoubtedly those districts in which there is a large urban population have greater need than the Voluntary Schools in rural districts, and this for more than one reason. In the first place, the urban schools, especially in the North, suffered very much by the Free Education Act . "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"How much?\"", "preceding_text": " organised. They will not be penalised for not forming themselves into an organisation. Of those in association each association will receive an amount of money corresponding to the number of scholars in average attendance in the schools composing it, subject only to the fact that if there be many urban schools they will get more than the average 5s., and if many rural schools they will get less. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter", "preceding_text": "THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY The Voluntary Schools will lose nothing; by this Bill not being passed last year. On the contrary, they will have gained immensely. If the Bill of last year had passed they would have got a, sum estimated at about £100,000 in the last quarter of this year, and they would have gone on getting money at the rate of £480,000 a year. They now get £618,000 a year for ever—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear,\" and a laugh .", "preceding_text": "ill have gained immensely. If the Bill of last year had passed they would have got a, sum estimated at about £100,000 in the last quarter of this year, and they would have gone on getting money at the rate of £480,000 a year. They now get £618,000 a year for ever—[ Opposition laughter ]—or, if not for ever, until some right hon. Gentleman opposite has the courage to take the money away from them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Oh\"", "preceding_text": "nd the result is that we have in England at this moment a system of education which has indeed its merits, but which no human being pretends is symmetrical or logical. The Irish system is a symmetrical and logical one; so is the Scotch. The Scotch system, let me remind hon. 939 Gentlemen opposite, gives power to the education authority of each parish to teach any religious symbol which it desires—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "chool with rich subscribers, but where, it may be, the great mass of the population are Dissenters, the children of the latter compelled to go to a school where there is religious teaching of which the mass disapprove, and yet the latter are prevented from getting any funds out of the rates to build a school of their own, while in the next parish you may have an equal injustice on the other hand? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ng any funds out of the rates to build a school of their own, while in the next parish you may have an equal injustice on the other hand? [\"Hear, hear!\"] You may have a large population of members of the Church of England too poor to obtain a Voluntary School and with a School Board school thrust upon them where they are absolutely precluded from teaching the symbols of the religion they profess. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "f their own, while in the next parish you may have an equal injustice on the other hand? [\"Hear, hear!\"] You may have a large population of members of the Church of England too poor to obtain a Voluntary School and with a School Board school thrust upon them where they are absolutely precluded from teaching the symbols of the religion they profess. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That is absolutely indefensible. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "justice on the other hand? [\"Hear, hear!\"] You may have a large population of members of the Church of England too poor to obtain a Voluntary School and with a School Board school thrust upon them where they are absolutely precluded from teaching the symbols of the religion they profess. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That is absolutely indefensible. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I do not know that anyone tries to defend it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " [\"Hear, hear!\"] That is absolutely indefensible. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I do not know that anyone tries to defend it. [\"Hear, hear!\"] This is an inconsistent system which has such strange doctrines advanced as that in the abstract it may be right and is right to spend the taxpayers' money upon undenominational education, but in the abstract it is wrong to spend that money upon denominational education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "poor district of some manufacturing town who is hardly able to scrape together the pence which enable him to keep going his Voluntary School which he thinks necessary for the proper religious education of his flock, and at the same time you oblige him to pay a rate to a School Board of which he disapproves—a rate amounting to comparatively an, immense sum out of the wretched income 940 he enjoys. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " an, immense sum out of the wretched income 940 he enjoys. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If that is a grievance to the Church, surely there is the grievance also of the Nonconformists in cases where, because the ground is already occupied by a, denominational school, it is impossible for those who do not like the religious teaching given there to get any assistance for any other school out of the public funds. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "given there to get any assistance for any other school out of the public funds. [\"Hear, hear!\"] None of us can pretend that this is a good system or one which will bear argument, or that it is symmetrical in design. But it has this one immense advantage—it does allow scope both for a system of denominational religious teaching on the one hand and teaching which is not denominational on the other. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ical in design. But it has this one immense advantage—it does allow scope both for a system of denominational religious teaching on the one hand and teaching which is not denominational on the other. [\"Hear, hear!\"] And it is because the system is big enough and roomy enough for both these methods of education that so far it has not been found unworthy of the general favour of the English public. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear\"", "preceding_text": "eaching. I hold and have publicly expressed very strong personal views upon this subject, and I shall not trouble the House with them again. But I want, the House to remember that it is really folly to suppose that if the denominational schools are starved out of existence the people of this country will ever consent to acquiesce in the undenominational teaching they tolerate in the Board Schools—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " subject, and I shall not trouble the House with them again. But I want, the House to remember that it is really folly to suppose that if the denominational schools are starved out of existence the people of this country will ever consent to acquiesce in the undenominational teaching they tolerate in the Board Schools—[\"hear, hear\"]—as long as a, denominational system stands side by side with it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "h Christians differ—if they say \"You ought to be able to found a system of doctrine common to all religious denominations \"—I point to the historic fact that all through time and by the necessities of human nature you can only get religious education of adults or children taught by a religious organisation, and that all religious organisations have been associated with a definite doctrinal basis. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ystem of doctrine common to all religious denominations \"—I point to the historic fact that all through time and by the necessities of human nature you can only get religious education of adults or children taught by a religious organisation, and that all religious organisations have been associated with a definite doctrinal basis. [\"Hear, hear!\"] There is no use arguing against facts like these. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers and cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": " any moment the Board School system were to succeed in squeezing out the voluntary system. But there is a 941 real danger that this may take place. I am not going through the well-worn history of the 3d. rate. Everyone who has any tincture of the knowledge of this subject is aware that no one can be expected to see the great cost and the extravagance of education as conducted by the School Board. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "cheers and cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "nger that this may take place. I am not going through the well-worn history of the 3d. rate. Everyone who has any tincture of the knowledge of this subject is aware that no one can be expected to see the great cost and the extravagance of education as conducted by the School Board. [ Cheers and cries of \"No!\"] I make no general charge. I say that the great cost and occasionally great extravagance—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "rces of the Voluntary Schools. That is a familial' story known by everyone. It is not merely in the interests of those hon. Gentlemen who sit cm this side of the House, who are attached as I am to a system of denominational religious teaching, but in the interest of those who are attached to the undenominational system, that I say that both Parties should try to make this Bill a workable success. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "a general system introduced which should place denominational teaching upon a very different basis from that on which it now rests. With every sympathy for their aims I may say that, in my judgment, they are unwise for two reasons—in the first place, because I do not think the public opinion of this country is ripe, or will be ripe for many years, if ever, for the sort of change which they desire."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ing upon a very different basis from that on which it now rests. With every sympathy for their aims I may say that, in my judgment, they are unwise for two reasons—in the first place, because I do not think the public opinion of this country is ripe, or will be ripe for many years, if ever, for the sort of change which they desire.[\"Hear, hear!\"] At all events, it is not ripe at the present time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "two reasons—in the first place, because I do not think the public opinion of this country is ripe, or will be ripe for many years, if ever, for the sort of change which they desire.[\"Hear, hear!\"] At all events, it is not ripe at the present time. [\"Hear, hear!\"] A Government which should attempt to pass such a gigantic measure would not have at its command a sufficient force to carry it through. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "[ Cheers .] There are some of those friendly critics who say, \"You have an enormous majority at your back. Do you mean to say that with such a majority you cannot carry any Bill you desire to pass?\" Friendly critics who make that observation are at liberty to deal as they please with 942 Government proposals, but the liberty they ask for themselves is one which they can scarcely refuse to others. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "Government proposals, but the liberty they ask for themselves is one which they can scarcely refuse to others. [\"Hear, hear!\"] While I do not doubt that they will be found zealous supporters of the Government policy if it squared with their own views, they can hardly seek to impose a discipline upon others of our followers which these Gentlemen themselves are the last to accept in their own case. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "f the Government policy if it squared with their own views, they can hardly seek to impose a discipline upon others of our followers which these Gentlemen themselves are the last to accept in their own case. [ Cheers .] I have a second objection to this attempt to repeal the whole scheme of our voluntary education, and it is this—no human being can tell what would be the issue of such an attempt. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eing can tell what would be the issue of such an attempt. [ Cheers .] I do not mean the issue to the Government—for that is a small matter—nor to the Party, for they exist for the community—but my belief is that it is impossible for any man to foresee what system of education would issue from a general controversy in which the whole subject of the Act of 1870 would be thrown into the melting pot. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "hools to maintain the struggle for a long period, and we were to introduce the system of undenominational schools, then the whole educational compromise under the Act of 1870 would come to an end. A new state of things would be brought into existence, and it would be impossible for this or any other Government to allay the educational storm which would sweep the country from one end to the other. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "uld be impossible for this or any other Government to allay the educational storm which would sweep the country from one end to the other. [ Cheers .] It may be said that the Bill is an attempt to patch up a rotten system—the system of 1870. It may be-said that the building was never well planned or symmetrical, and that it never satisfied the taste of its legislative architects. All that is true—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear hear!\"", "preceding_text": "It may be said that the Bill is an attempt to patch up a rotten system—the system of 1870. It may be-said that the building was never well planned or symmetrical, and that it never satisfied the taste of its legislative architects. All that is true—[ cheers ]—but I confess that it is no reproach to a practical statesman to say that he endeavours to make the best of the building in which he lives. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tive architects. All that is true—[ cheers ]—but I confess that it is no reproach to a practical statesman to say that he endeavours to make the best of the building in which he lives. [\"Hear hear!\"] If the Voluntary Schools will take full advantage of 943 the present Bill, which I hope will pass, I believe that they will be placed in a position of security that they have not previously occupied. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ur Bill will fail—in that case the subject will again come up for discussion and treatment in this House. If the signs of the times which meet one in every country in Europe are of any significance as to the future of this country, then I say we shall be in that ease involved in religious discussions which certainly will not add to the charity of our public life or to the ease of the Legislature. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ecy to say what will happen if everything has to be refashioned from the beginning, and if an attempt is made to meet the views both of those who like the present School Board system and those who like the denominational system. In any case, oven if the Bill does fail, I, for my part, shall feel that the Government will have done well to introduce it and try to pass it—as pass it I hope we shall. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "settle and set at rest this burning question. The effort, I say, deserves well, not merely of those who support us in the country, but of our bitterest opponents who profess to maintain the present School Board system, and who, if they believe me, will only be rushing to its destruction if they do anything to hasten the decay of the voluntary system, which is part of the great settlement of 1870. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "rliament of an aid grant to Voluntary Schools not exceeding 5s. per scholar for the whole number of scholars in those schools; ( b ) to repeal, as regards Day Schools, so much of Section 19 of the Elementary Education Act, 1876 . as imposes a limit on the Parliamentary grant to Elementary Schools in England and Wales; and ( c ) to make provision for the exemption from rates of Voluntary Schools.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "t to engage in discussing what had been laid before them, should be said at once. Now, the method in which the matter had been brought before them was somewhat remarkable. They were under the impression last year that a certain portion of the surplus of 1896 must be assigned very early in the present Session—before March 31—and that was why the House of Commons was being called together so early. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "Schools must be approved before March 31. But now, for the first time, they discovered that the Bill need not be through by March 31. That affected the whole position which the House ought to take up towards the question. What was the question before them, and what was the 4th clause of last year's Bill? It proposed to give part of last year's money to Voluntary Schools and part to Board Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ss the Bill for the Voluntary Schools, but it was to be left absolutely in the dark as to what portion of money was going to be assigned to the Board Schools, or what were called necessitous Board Schools. He should have thought that to introduce two separate Education Bills would be calculated to create more friction and waste more time than to introduce one Bill dealing with the whole question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " what were called necessitous Board Schools. He should have thought that to introduce two separate Education Bills would be calculated to create more friction and waste more time than to introduce one Bill dealing with the whole question. [ Cheers .] But the Government reserved to themselves the opportunity of having no Bill for the Board Schools at all, notwithstanding the general understanding. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n. [ Cheers .] But the Government reserved to themselves the opportunity of having no Bill for the Board Schools at all, notwithstanding the general understanding. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The result of that would be that the Board Schools to which the Government pledged themselves by last year's Bill to give something out of last year's surplus would, perhaps, get nothing even out of this year's surplus. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "'s surplus would, perhaps, get nothing even out of this year's surplus. [\"Hear, hear!\"] What he wanted to show to the House as what the posit on of the Government had 946 been with reference to the ratepayers and their schools during the past 18 months—what promises they had made and undertakings they had entered into which, on this occasion, at any rate, they were absolutely going to disappoint. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear,\" and laughter .", "preceding_text": "ich, on this occasion, at any rate, they were absolutely going to disappoint. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He had observed that when his hon. and learned Friends were conducting a breach of promise case they made a great many quotations from letters and documents concerned. The present case was remarkably analogous to a breach of promise case, and, therefore, he proposed to read a few extracts from documents. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "roused anything like enthusiasm among the friends of religious education. Lord Salisbury continued his speech thus:— The other question is this—How are we to diminish the tremendous burden—and the increasing burden—which the education rate is laying upon many communities in this country? The present proposals did nothing directly, and very little indirectly, to; diminish these tremendous burdens. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers 947 and laughter .", "preceding_text": "posals did nothing directly, and very little indirectly, to; diminish these tremendous burdens. [ Cheers .] The day after Lord Salisbury made this speech, the Archbishops and Bishops, as a deputation from the Church, went to the Duke of Devonshire, as the First Education Minister of this country. He called him \"the first Education Minister\" because at present there were three Education Ministers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "he First Education Minister of this country. He called him \"the first Education Minister\" because at present there were three Education Ministers. [ Cheers 947 and laughter .] In replying to the deputation, the Duke of Devonshire said:— Probably it is the opinion of many of you that an addition of 5s. would not be an adequate or sufficient sum. But you must remember that a grant of 5s. all round\"—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Loud Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "an addition of 5s. would not be an adequate or sufficient sum. But you must remember that a grant of 5s. all round\"—[ cheers ]—\" would amount to a million of money. What, I presume, is intended by this demand, is a fixed grant all round. I do not conceive that it is proposed by any legislation to depart from the principle of statutory equality as regards State aid to Voluntary and Board Schools.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "amount to a million of money. What, I presume, is intended by this demand, is a fixed grant all round. I do not conceive that it is proposed by any legislation to depart from the principle of statutory equality as regards State aid to Voluntary and Board Schools.\" [ Loud Opposition cheers .] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY There is no statutory equality. § MR. ACLAND Is there none now? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " is proposed by any legislation to depart from the principle of statutory equality as regards State aid to Voluntary and Board Schools.\" [ Loud Opposition cheers .] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY There is no statutory equality. § MR. ACLAND Is there none now? [ Cheers .] I am sorry that the new Education Minister has not followed the methods on which the Parliamentary grants are made. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " methods on which the Parliamentary grants are made. [ Cheers .] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I am sorry that the old Education Minister has not followed Section 97 of the Act of 1870. § MR. ACLAND said that of course he was not alluding to certain small grants to schools in poor districts. He was alluding to the £7,000,000 which were voted every year in the Estimates under Class 4. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ion 97 of the Act of 1870. § MR. ACLAND said that of course he was not alluding to certain small grants to schools in poor districts. He was alluding to the £7,000,000 which were voted every year in the Estimates under Class 4. [ Cheers .] That was what the Duke of Devonshire was alluding to, and that money was allotted on principles of statutory equality between Board and Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e, though it was more generous in admitting the principle of relief and help to Board Schools than the present proposals, which had no time limitation whatever. The provisions of last year's Bill admitted two broad principles, which lay quite outside the present proposals. They admitted Board Schools to a share of the Parliamentary grant, and they admitted the principle of representative control. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e Unionist Government, the hon. Member for the Edgbaston Division of Birmingham, said:— The grant should be a grant all round, and if a clause not giving a grant all round remained in the Bill when it became law, he should vote against the Third reading. 948 The hon. Member should find it easy to vote against the Second Reading of the present proposals, which did nothing at all for Board Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "r which the Colonial Secretary wrote to Mr. Ansell, a member of the Birmingham School Board, who objected to the differentiation between Board and Voluntary Schools in the special aid grant. The right hon. Gentleman said:— I feel that there is, prima facie , much to be said on the matter, and I have no doubt that these questions will receive the fullest consideration in the Committee on the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "in the special aid grant. The right hon. Gentleman said:— I feel that there is, prima facie , much to be said on the matter, and I have no doubt that these questions will receive the fullest consideration in the Committee on the Bill. [ Ironical cheers .] The Government had taken very good care that questions of that kind should not, as far as they could help it, receive any consideration at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "have done has been done because I could do nothing else under the rides of this House. § MR. ACLAND said that his contention was that if the Resolution now submitted to the House had contained a proposal to give a certain amount of money to certain poor schools, there would have been no objection on this ground whatever. Then the right hon. Gentleman would not have been \"fettered and bound.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " this House. § MR. ACLAND said that his contention was that if the Resolution now submitted to the House had contained a proposal to give a certain amount of money to certain poor schools, there would have been no objection on this ground whatever. Then the right hon. Gentleman would not have been \"fettered and bound.\" [ Cheers .] Then the Opposition would not have been \"fettered and bound.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "hich proposed to give only, £50,000 to Board Schools and nearly £500,000 to Voluntary Schools— he thought some change would have to be made with regard to this grant and its distribution. If this was to be a fair and just Bill it must not help the Voluntary Schools and pretend, up to a certain point, to assist the Board Schools, and then secure the one and leave the Board Schools out in the cold. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ion. If this was to be a fair and just Bill it must not help the Voluntary Schools and pretend, up to a certain point, to assist the Board Schools, and then secure the one and leave the Board Schools out in the cold. [ Cheers .] That would he a good motto for the present procedure. The Government were determined, whatever else happened, to secure the Voluntary Schools, and then, if time permitted—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " up to a certain point, to assist the Board Schools, and then secure the one and leave the Board Schools out in the cold. [ Cheers .] That would he a good motto for the present procedure. The Government were determined, whatever else happened, to secure the Voluntary Schools, and then, if time permitted—[ laughter ]—they would see whether or not they would leave the Board Schools out in the cold. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "mined, whatever else happened, to secure the Voluntary Schools, and then, if time permitted—[ laughter ]—they would see whether or not they would leave the Board Schools out in the cold. [ Cheers .] The right hon. Member for Dartford added, in the same speech— Unless this was a fair and just, it could not be a lasting, settlement, but would lead to future controversies and struggles in the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers and laughter .", "preceding_text": " of everyone that there was no thought of nothing being given to the Board Schools in the present Measure. During the Recess there were some remarkable utterances which encouraged the belief that the position of the Board Schools, and of the ratepayers who supported them, was likely to be much better in the new Bill than in that of last year. He would now quote from the second Education Minister. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "econd Education Minister. [ Cheers and laughter .] The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Council, writing in The North American Review in October 1896, said:— In the country the Voluntary Schools are better off than the Board Schools. There is no competition and no necessity for levelling up as in the towns. The Voluntary Schools can hold their own without further pecuniary support.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "1896, said:— In the country the Voluntary Schools are better off than the Board Schools. There is no competition and no necessity for levelling up as in the towns. The Voluntary Schools can hold their own without further pecuniary support.\" [ Cheers .] \"The rates levied in School Board districts are a greater burden upon the people than the subscriptions in parishes which have Voluntary Schools.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "as that given by their rivals. After such a statement from the Vice President, what was the Government doing? Were they aware that out of 2,500 Boards in this country no less than 1,750 were in districts with less than 3,000 inhabitants? And for these School Boards, which needed levelling up rather than leaving out in the cold, the Government were, for the present, going to do absolutely nothing. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ber issue of the Nineteenth Century . in which he said that in rural districts where the Board School system was not spreading there were many parishes in which the Voluntary Schools were in no danger of extinction, and he added:— In any grant made by the Exchequer to country schools it would be difficult to defend upon any principle of justice its restriction to those under Voluntary management. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "chools were in no danger of extinction, and he added:— In any grant made by the Exchequer to country schools it would be difficult to defend upon any principle of justice its restriction to those under Voluntary management. [ Cheers .] Did the right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House wonder after that that the country had expected that something was going to be done for country Board Schools? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "l efficient. The parish which is under School Board management is probably the poorer of the two, lacking the wealthier residents whose subscriptions help to keep up the Voluntary School. It has greater burdens, for it has to pay for elections and management as well as for schools. It would be impossible to give a grant from the Exchequer to the richer parish and leave the poorer out in the cold. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "or elections and management as well as for schools. It would be impossible to give a grant from the Exchequer to the richer parish and leave the poorer out in the cold. [ Cheers .] But what the head of the Education Department in this House first said would be difficult and then said would be impossible the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Treasury had found himself able to do that day. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "overnment, whereas a neighbouring town which had a large number of children in the Board Schools and had only a few Voluntary Schools, would get very little indeed out of the Government; and when the different towns in the kingdom came to examine how much they would get out of a grant of that kind, strong representations would come from many quarters that they were not being treated with justice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "presentations would come from many quarters that they were not being treated with justice. [ Cheers .] After reading such speeches the friends of the Board Schools believed they had the voice of the Government encouraging them to hope that the case of the Board Schools, instead of getting weaker, was getting stronger and stronger; but now they found that they were on that point entirely mistaken. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "reat all their children in non-Board School districts on an equality with Board School children, and give them an equal grant from the Imperial fund. It seemed to him that that tended to show that the Church Conference, if their own case had been met, were willing to take a more generous view of grants of Imperial aid, whether to Board or to Voluntary Schools, than the Government themselves took. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "f education has not been treated in the way of equivalent grants at all. Ireland has more than her equivalent grant. § MR. ACLAND Then do I understand that Ireland is to receive no equivalent at all for this gift of over half-a-million to a certain portion of the English community? Do I understand also that Scotland, which has been so long in the van of education, will receive no equivalent? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ot pay School Board rates. But what did the Government propose to do? They were going to take two-thirds of the money from districts largely urban, where School Board rates were paid, and to hand over a very considerable portion of it to districts largely rural where no School Board rates were paid at all. So far as that was the case, it was the policy of the Agricultural Rating Act of last year. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "the case of London a 5s. grant all round, what would be the position of the taxpayer in London as compared with the taxpayer in Lancashire? Lancashire would get on that basis about £114,000, while London, which had almost exactly the same number of children all told, Voluntary and Board, in average attendance, would on the same basis only get about £44,000, or £70,000 a year less than Lancashire. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "f the taxpayer in London as compared with the taxpayer in Lancashire? Lancashire would get on that basis about £114,000, while London, which had almost exactly the same number of children all told, Voluntary and Board, in average attendance, would on the same basis only get about £44,000, or £70,000 a year less than Lancashire. [ Cheers .] He commended that to the attention of the London Members. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "e same basis only get about £44,000, or £70,000 a year less than Lancashire. [ Cheers .] He commended that to the attention of the London Members. [ Cheers .] The London ratepayer, who paid a rate twice as high as did the Lancashire ratepayer, instead of getting twice 954 as much money was going to get £70,000 a year less. He wished to plead the case of Manchester before the right hon. Gentleman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "the right hon. Gentleman proposed to do nothing whatever towards all these Board School children in Manchester, although there were 33,000 more of them to deal with than in those three boroughs which were going to get 5s. for every one of their children. His surprise was that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Manchester should treat the Manchester and Lancashire ratepayers in this way. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " 5s. for every one of their children. His surprise was that the right hon. Gentleman the Member for East Manchester should treat the Manchester and Lancashire ratepayers in this way. [ Ironical cheers .] He had in his hand an interesting card which was sent out to the constituents of the right hon. Gentleman at the last General Election in Manchester. On one side it had two trumpeters and a crown—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter and Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "at the Manchester and Lancashire ratepayers in this way. [ Ironical cheers .] He had in his hand an interesting card which was sent out to the constituents of the right hon. Gentleman at the last General Election in Manchester. On one side it had two trumpeters and a crown—[ laughter ]—over the two trumpeters, who carried flags on their trumpets, were written the words, \"Security and prosperity.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "rogress,\" and at the bottom of this picture— Your vote and interest are respectfully solicited on behalf of the right hon. Gentleman, Arthur James Balfour, Unionist candidate for East Manchester. Then followed the name of the printer and publisher in Manchester, and the words \"See over.\" He saw over, and 955 there he found the words at the top,\" The programme of the Unionist Tarty under 15 heads\"—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter and ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "er.\" He saw over, and 955 there he found the words at the top,\" The programme of the Unionist Tarty under 15 heads\"—[ laughter ]—and between the \"exclusion of pauper aliens\" and \"Church Defence \"—and he was certain there was not a word in this programme as to assistance to Voluntary Schools—he found these remarkable words, \"Poor Law and School Board rates to be charged on the Imperial Exchequer.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tever to say that; he has not seen the Bill. § MR. ACLAND said he should, of course, be glad to hear if there was some provision which the right hon. Gentleman had not mentioned, but the abolition of the 17s. 6d. limit was generally supposed to mean the abolition of any condition remaining on the Statute Book by which local subscribers were expected to contribute something to meet the grant. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ople in the country districts. Would it not be well to listen to the moderate counsels of Lord Northbrook, who was chairman of his county council and knew the county districts in the South of England well, who, writing to the Bishop of Winchester, said that in his opinion there ought to be on the management of country schools representation of the parents, or representation of the parish council? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "said that in his opinion there ought to be on the management of country schools representation of the parents, or representation of the parish council? [\"Hear, hear!\"] He thought that if they knew the minds of some hon. Gentlemen opposite they would say that they were not themselves in favour in many country districts of the extremely limited clerical control which in many places alone held sway. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e present proposal, on the one hand, they were embarrassing and making more difficult the administration at the centre and in the country at large; among those who were interested in the cause of the ratepayers' schools they were raising a feeling, by keeping them out in the cold, of irritation and exasperation which they could not expect easily to allay. All this was injurious to true education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tic spirit with reference to the way in which the Government dealt with elementary education. The hon. and learned Member for Warwick and Leamington, in seconding the Address to the Speech from the Throne, urged them to take a very moderate line on educational questions. But it was not quite so easy to take a moderate line when the question was treated in the way in which it was to be treated now—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers and counter-cheers .", "preceding_text": "he Act of 1870, did the Government think they were preserving it by the methods and the proposal now laid before them? They were trustees there for all those who bore the burden in regard to education, whatever kind of school they supported. They must do their best, and he hoped some hon. Gentlemen on the other side would help them, to fight out what were really the broad issues of this question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers and Ministerial cries of \"Rates.\"", "preceding_text": "ow laid before them? They were trustees there for all those who bore the burden in regard to education, whatever kind of school they supported. They must do their best, and he hoped some hon. Gentlemen on the other side would help them, to fight out what were really the broad issues of this question. [ Cheers and counter-cheers .] The principles of the Act of 1870 were the principles of equality. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " of the Duke of Devonshire when he met a clerical deputation at Birmingham:— Where once the principles of the Act of 1870 had been departed from,\" he said,\" it is of course open to your opponent to regard the settlement then arrived at as completely at an end. I think it will he prudent on the part of the managers of Voluntary Schools to remember that the existence of Parliament is not perpetual. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "9 great surplus this year. They had an immense majority in the House of Commons, and they had had—he said it without hesitation—on many points a not unreasonable minority. With all these advantages, and with no limit of time to hold them back, he thought it was a matter of profound regret that they had taken such a Measure, and that they had selected such a manner to put their Measure into force. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " a position in which only half the case could be fully dealt with, and they had deliberately shut out the Board Schools into the cold. They had chosen a method of dealing with this matter in the House of Commons which, he ventured to say, prejudiced even their own case, which was unjust to the ratepayers and taxpayers, and which was gravely unfair to their representatives in the House of Commons. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "mons. [ Cheers .] § MR. R. JEBB (Cambridge University) trusted his right hon. Friend opposite would pardon him if he ventured to express the opinion that, while he devoted a large portion of his speech to details, he did not altogether succeed in presenting a fair general view of the circumstances under which this Bill had been produced or of the intentions of the First Lord of the Treasury. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hile he devoted a large portion of his speech to details, he did not altogether succeed in presenting a fair general view of the circumstances under which this Bill had been produced or of the intentions of the First Lord of the Treasury. [ Cheers .] The Bill was confined to the object of affording a limited amount of relief, at as early a date as might be practicable, of an urgently needed kind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "succeed in presenting a fair general view of the circumstances under which this Bill had been produced or of the intentions of the First Lord of the Treasury. [ Cheers .] The Bill was confined to the object of affording a limited amount of relief, at as early a date as might be practicable, of an urgently needed kind. [\"Hear, hear!\"] As to the urgency he ventured to say there could be no dispute. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he Bill was confined to the object of affording a limited amount of relief, at as early a date as might be practicable, of an urgently needed kind. [\"Hear, hear!\"] As to the urgency he ventured to say there could be no dispute. [ Cheers .] It was certain that, if such aid was not afforded at a reasonably early date, very large numbers of their Voluntary Schools would be threatened with extinction—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " the urgency he ventured to say there could be no dispute. [ Cheers .] It was certain that, if such aid was not afforded at a reasonably early date, very large numbers of their Voluntary Schools would be threatened with extinction—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and it was not disputable that if the Voluntary Schools were to perish there would be cast upon the ratepayers a new annual burden exceeding £4,000,000. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "uld be threatened with extinction—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and it was not disputable that if the Voluntary Schools were to perish there would be cast upon the ratepayers a new annual burden exceeding £4,000,000. [\"Hear, hear!\"] As to the amount of relief which the Bill proposed to give, he confessed that in his opinion it fell short of that which the supporters of Voluntary Schools might rightfully claim. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "formulated by the 960 meeting of the two Convocations at the Church House, and put forward on behalf of the Roman Catholics of this country by their hierarchy, that supporters of Voluntary Schools were entitled, not merely in return for what they had done and were doing, but simply as citizens and ratepayers, to share in that education rate raised within school districts which they helped to pay. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "te raised within school districts which they helped to pay. [ Cheers .] That, however, was not in question at the present time. It had been assumed throughout his speech by his right hon. Friend opposite that the Leader of the House did not really intend to introduce a Bill for the relief of the necessitous Board Schools. He submitted there was absolutely no ground for such an assumption as that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "might be in the knowledge of some Members that a few days ago there appeared in the Press a letter addressed by the First Lord of the Treasury to the hon. Member for West Ham in which a similar pledge was given in the most distinct and unequivocal terms. There was, therefore, absolutely no ground for asserting over and over again that the necessitous Board Schools were to be left out in the cold. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "id not. That was the present state of the religious element in the Board Schools' instruction. 961 The other view was that since education tended to form character and to aim at forming character, and since religion was most potent for that purpose, education should he based upon its teaching, and that if this religious teaching was to have that fundamental place in education it must be definite. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "racter, and since religion was most potent for that purpose, education should he based upon its teaching, and that if this religious teaching was to have that fundamental place in education it must be definite. [\"Hear, hear!\"] It could not be denied that parents had a right to choose in which of these two views their children were to be educated—the Board School view or the Voluntary School view. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t three-sevenths, or, as his right hon. Friend said, four-ninths, at all events less than half, of the children of the country now receive elementary education in Board Schools, and more than half in Voluntary Schools. The State imposes elementary education on all. The State, therefore, has no moral right to penalise any of its citizens for preferring that view presented by the Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " has no moral right to penalise any of its citizens for preferring that view presented by the Voluntary Schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If the State does that it enforces on the community an arbitrary and a narrow idea of education, and fines them for not keeping to it. Before 1870 no one would have dreamed of such a thing. Board Schools were set up, not to supplant, but to supplement Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Schools were set up, not to supplant, but to supplement Voluntary Schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The doctrine that Board Schools should be universal and that education based on religious and sectarian caprice, in which eccentric persons chose to indulge, should be paid for as they would pay for any other expensive luxury, was not only a novel doctrine, but repugnant to common sense and common justice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n based on religious and sectarian caprice, in which eccentric persons chose to indulge, should be paid for as they would pay for any other expensive luxury, was not only a novel doctrine, but repugnant to common sense and common justice. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But it was very justly urged that when public money was given to denominational schools there should be representative control of those schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the form of control correlative to State aid would be central control by the State; but if it was to be rate aid, then the correlative control would be local control. But they had not to do with rate aid, and therefore nothing to do with local control. What form of central control could be more complete and effectual than that the Bill proposed to give—the control of the 962 Education Department? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "dence of its inspectors that a particular school was in an efficient state, it would have the power to diminish or withhold that portion of the grant the federation proposed to apply to that school. Take the case of particular schools which did not federate for any reason, in regard to each of these the Education Department would have the right to withhold the grant on the ground of inefficiency. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ground that a particular school had unreasonably declined to join a federation; while it was provided that a school which was denominationally isolated should not be made to join a federation of which the majority of schools belonged to another denomination. If these guarantees that grants should not go to non-efficient schools were not adequate, he really did not know what guarantee could be so. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t adequate, he really did not know what guarantee could be so. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Then it had been urged outside the House, in anticipation of the Bill, and no doubt the topic would come up again in course of discussion before the Bill passed, that public money should not be given to any denominational school unless that school could meet the grant with a certain proportional voluntary subscription. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "roportional voluntary subscription. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Evidently the friends of Voluntary Schools had the strongest of all possible reasons for earnestly desiring and strenuously endeavouring to keep up their subscriptions. And why? Simply for the reason that without that help they could not hope to compete on the strength of State aid alone with Board Schools, which had both State aid and rate aid. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "addition, Board 963 Schools were spending nearly five millions a year on maintenance alone, the total expenditure of the School Boards of England and Wales amounting to about eight and a half millions. What had been done by the subscribers to Voluntary Schools? In 1870 the total amount of annual subscriptions was about £295,000, and at the present time it was more than double that—about £600,000. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "alone had expended about seven and a half millions. Then there were school buildings and endowments—what he might call the crystallised form of subscriptions. It was this assistance alone which had made it possible for Voluntary Schools to hold their own against Board Schools, which could respond to every new requirement of the Education Department by drawing on the bottomless purse of the rates. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ommunion they had never yet surrendered one of their schools. Think for a moment what a sacrifice this simple fact implied, and how difficult it would be to raise subscriptions among the poorest populations of these northern towns, and what it meant to impose on these poor people in addition to the duty of providing daily bread for their young children that of saving them from starvation of mind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ous kind to make ends meet. In the case of such districts as these, where from the very nature of the 964 case Voluntary subscriptions could not be merely local, but must be largely non-local, it would be unreasonable to place schools under similar conditions as to the ratio of local subscriptions as those situated in well-to-do districts where subscriptions could be raised with comparative ease. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear\" from The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY.", "preceding_text": " conditions as to the ratio of local subscriptions as those situated in well-to-do districts where subscriptions could be raised with comparative ease. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Before sitting down he added a few words on the general relations of the Bill to the prospect of future legislation on this subject. The Bill did not carry, and his right hon. Friend did not claim for it, the character of finality. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ary education problem could be found until the country realised more widely and clearly than it yet had done the true relation of such projects to Mr. Forster's Act of 1870. Some of his hon. Friends had been accustomed to speak of Mr. Forster's Act as a settlement and a compromise. He was sorry to say that if it was once a settlement it had long been unsettled and not fairly to Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ent and a compromise. He was sorry to say that if it was once a settlement it had long been unsettled and not fairly to Voluntary Schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If it was originally a compromise it had come to be a compromise in which the interest of one of the contracting parties was ignored. If it was still observed in the letter it had often been violated, and was often still violated in the spirit. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ce he expressed his feeling that there were only two methods by which the problem of elementary education could be finally dealt with. One method was to give Voluntary Schools a share in the education rate levied in the School Board district, they in return having a fair amount of local control with those safeguards for preserving the distinctive basis and character of the denominational schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e in the education rate levied in the School Board district, they in return having a fair amount of local control with those safeguards for preserving the distinctive basis and character of the denominational schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He felt that with a little goodwill and a little trust and confidence on both sides this could be carried out far more easily than many of his hon. Friends supposed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Exchequer could hardly be induced to entertain such an idea unless the country declared for it in an unmistakable manner, but he did not feel so certain that some such plan might not be heard of in years to come. Meantime one thing might be done which would largely facilitate the settlement of this elementary education problem, and that was to draw a line between primary and secondary education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e by a Measure giving relief to necessitous Board Schools. While fully recognising the sincerity of the intentions of hon. Gentlemen opposite and the signal services many of them had rendered to the cause of education, he yet contended that those on his side of the House were no less earnest in their desire to promote educational efficiency, and in that spirit he approved of the present proposal. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ency, and in that spirit he approved of the present proposal. [\"Hear, hear!\"] § SIR CHARLES DILKE (Gloucester, Forest of Dean) remarked that the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken had said that this was a limited Bill, founded on principles of justice, and about to be speedily supplemented by another Bill, which would deal with necessitous Board Schools. The Bill was, indeed, a limited Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "les of justice, and about to be speedily supplemented by another Bill, which would deal with necessitous Board Schools. The Bill was, indeed, a limited Bill. [ Opposition cheers .] Those interested in necessitous Board Schools never thought, until within the last few days, that it would be so limited and it was a Bill wholly opposed to the principles of justice on account of that very limitation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n to discuss the claims of the necessitous Board Schools to equal treatment with that meted out to the Voluntary Schools. As he understood it would not be competent for them to move to extend the scope of the Resolution beyond the Voluntary Schools so as to include the necessitous Board Schools, many hon. Members would be driven to vote against the whole Resolution on the ground of its injustice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ar!\"] The Leader of the House had said he was astonished that they should be surprised at the present Bill being limited by the word \"Voluntary\" in this way. Having been chairman of the conference on this very subject, which represented the Board School authorities in the country, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that it was never for one moment supposed that the Bill would be so limited. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ut, at the same time, considering the poor Board School districts. Did the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Ham consider that the statement made that night by the right hon. Gentleman was equivalent to the assurances 967 contained in the letter he had received from the right hon. Gentleman? Until that night they were all under the belief that the Education Bill was to be passed before March 31. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " which was only preparatory; and if in these remarks he appeared to be condemning himself, he would point out that last year he showed no such indiscretion, for he did not open his mouth in the House at any stage of the Bill of last year, though it was true that he did write a letter to The Times . which was very much ridiculed at the time because he recommended that the Bill should be withdrawn. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "very much ridiculed at the time because he recommended that the Bill should be withdrawn. [ Opposition cheers .] Why was he rash enough to speak on the subject now when he held back last year? But there had been a great change in the situation. He understood that the reason Parliament met some weeks earlier than usual was that something should be accomplished before the end of the financial year. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "[ Opposition cheers .] Why was he rash enough to speak on the subject now when he held back last year? But there had been a great change in the situation. He understood that the reason Parliament met some weeks earlier than usual was that something should be accomplished before the end of the financial year. [ Opposition cheers .] He believed that impression was shared by the rest of the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "s prepared to give the Bill under those circumstances he must now withhold. He approached the subject in no spirit of jealousy. He had come to recognise that they must pay deference to the wishes of parents where they were clearly expressed, and if they were followed it would be absolutely unjust to withhold public money from the 972 school. Personally he was an upholder of unsectarian education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers and laughter", "preceding_text": "e, not perhaps the Government that now held office, but possibly the right hon. Member for West Monmouth introducing a scheme of rate-aided support of denominational schools. It was all very well to deride the Archbishops and Bishops for their ignorance of the conditions of Parliamentary life, but he was not sure that they were not miracles of political wisdom compared with the present Government—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ore the end of the financial year, under some guarantee that there was to be further action hereafter, he should have supported it. But it came without such guarantees in its present naked deformity, and the House of Commons would find by contact with people out-of-doors that there were forces at work in the masses of the people which would be hostile to the permanence of such a settle- 973 ment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n the masses of the people which would be hostile to the permanence of such a settle- 973 ment. [ Opposition cheers .] In his constituency the parishioners in the moorlands would out of their poverty have to support their School Boards, while their richer neighbours over the border received assistance under this scheme. How could he go to such parishes and defend such a scheme? It was impossible. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "opposition laughter", "preceding_text": "eme which left the allocation of money more or less to the Education Department. Now, was the thing so hopeless that they were driven to vote against this Resolution? Could they not have a guarantee which would fix the Government to an engagement to complete the scheme? If so, hon. Members could go to their constituents and say this was only a partial Measure, and standing by itself it was unjust—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e of money in aid of Voluntary Schools. Why not insert the words \"during the year ending March 31, 1898.\" If those words were inserted it would give the Government a whole year to see something of the working of this complex scheme, and if they gave the guarantee they had mentioned the Government would not be able to come next Session and say, \"We are too busy to take up and complete the scheme.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ation. But, if the subject was to remain as it had been introduced by the First Lord of the Treasury, the House, he thought, could not rest satisfied. It was for the Government to determine in what temper they should proceed, and he urged upon Ministers the necessity of doing something promptly, which would free some of their supporters from great embarrassment and themselves from some suspicion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "e age of compulsory attendance of agricultural labourers' children from 11 to 12. He was glad also they had decided not to be seduced by the Church Committee or the Convocation of Bishops sitting at the Church House in Dean's-yard into giving rate aid to Voluntary Schools. If the Government had not dropped that idea, the agricultural districts would have dropped them at the next General Election. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ing rate aid to Voluntary Schools. If the Government had not dropped that idea, the agricultural districts would have dropped them at the next General Election. [ Opposition cheers .] He thought, however, the teachers ought to have got something in the shape of security of tenure. The money to be voted should be, to a certain extent, earmarked both for apparatus and for extra pay to the teachers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " to be voted should be, to a certain extent, earmarked both for apparatus and for extra pay to the teachers. [ Opposition cheers .] He had a resolution in his pocket from an important body of his constituents, in which they objected to relief not being given to Board Schools and Voluntary Schools alike. He held that the money should be paid to both alike, and should come out of one Imperial fund. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ry Schools alike. He held that the money should be paid to both alike, and should come out of one Imperial fund. [ Cheers .] The right hon. Gentleman the Leader of the House promised, indeed, a supplementary Bill \"if time permits.\" It lay entirely with the Government to say whether time should permit or not. If the Government would only limit the exuberant rhetoric of hon. Gentlemen on both sides—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": ", as it had been shaped largely by the clerical supporters of the Government, and as it made no attempt to remedy the grievances under which School Boards in necessitous districts laboured, he trusted that the House—supported by the Nonconformists, by all lovers of the School Board system of education, and he would add by every lover of fair play—would earnestly and resolutely oppose the Measure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "aceably and with as little as possible Debate in this House, and above all things it should be kept as far as possible from the turmoil of political controversy and strife. He asked any hon. Gentleman whether the proposal was likely to tend to peace and harmony in educational matters. He could not help thinking that the proposal would give the opponents of the Government a very good rallying cry. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Renewed Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " a very good rallying cry. [ Opposition cheers .] It seemed to him it would tend in every possible way to foment in each district an agitation which before long would become very serious: the Government were in fact giving their opponents a very useful political cry. He could not for a moment suppose that the suggestion as to the association of schools would last even through the Committee stage. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tem have what they desired just as he would provide a denominational system of education for those who wished to have it. They were bound to promote any national system that would advance those interests. In his judgment, to put anything in this Bill which would suggest unfairness to any one particular class of schools would tend to sectarian rivalry and to retard the progress of sound education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "view he thought the problem might have been solved. But he feared that the scheme set forth, though by it certain schools which badly wanted help would be assisted, would give an idea, of unfairness in regard to other schools; that it would set up a spirit, of rivalry and antagonism, and that the Measure to be introduced would not tend ultimately to the firmer foundation of the Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ade a great mistake in dealing with this matter from the narrow standpoint they had taken up, especially because, representing as they did, all shades of ecclesiastical opinion, they had peculiar advantages in dealing with it, and an opportunity of recognising what was fair and just to each section. The Measure, however, was drafted in a way which was most unfair and unjust to all free Churchmen. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "as they were termed, were twitted by a noble Lord on the front Bench with having prevented, through their intolerance, a solution of this question. That was not true. The name \"Political Noncon- 989 formists\" was simply used, they knew, as a term of opprobrium, but after all Political Nonconformists were simply Nonconformists who were really in earnest and believed implicitly in their principles. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers, and Ministerial cries of \" No, no!\"", "preceding_text": " that at the present time there were 8,000 parishes in England in which the only schools were those connected with the Established Church. The direct effect of this was that in any of those parishes where there was an intolerant Clergyman, or where strong Church views were held, the Nonconformist children attending 990 them—there was no other school available for them—were under a certain stigma. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " but it must be borne in mind that most of the Nonconformists in such parishes were in the employment of the leading Churchmen in the district, and thus could not complain, or seek protection under the Conscience Clause without making themselves obnoxious. He contended that it was grossly unfair to place Nonconformists in that position, which they had endured in those 8,000 parishes for 25 years. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nconformists in that position, which they had endured in those 8,000 parishes for 25 years. [\"Hear, hear!\"] A second glaring injustice was that, while only one-sixth of the cost of the so-called Voluntary or Church of England Schools was borne by subscriptions and, endowments, the other five-sixths were borne by the State, and yet the whole management of the schools was in the hands of one party. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s, the other five-sixths were borne by the State, and yet the whole management of the schools was in the hands of one party. [\"Hear, hear!\"] No fair-minded man could say that that was a, right state of things. A third great injustice to Nonconformists was that in the parishes to which he had referred, not a single Nonconformist young man or woman was permitted to enter the educational profession. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"' Hear, hear,\" and Ministerial cries of \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "er the educational profession. [\"Hear, hear!\"] There were many bright young men and women in those parishes—some of them the sons and daughters of Nonconformist Ministers—who would be glad to enter the profession, and who would willingly and loyally serve the schools, subject to a. Conscience Clause, but they were told that their services were not required unless they gave up their Nonconformity. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " using 991 them twice a week and on Sundays. Moreover, the Board gave them the use of all the new appliances for their own, special work, and he ventured to say that there were not ten men then in that district who would desire to go back to the old system. Yet this was a district, which, having adopted a fair and reasonable system through their representatives, would get nothing under this Hill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " to the old system. Yet this was a district, which, having adopted a fair and reasonable system through their representatives, would get nothing under this Hill. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That was in itself an evidence of the injustice of the course the Government adopted, for the effect of the proposal would be to punish those who had determined to work loyally together in the cause of national education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No; four-sevenths!\"", "preceding_text": "ve religious education established in conformity with the wishes of the people as a whole. It seemed to him that this proposal of the Government was not only unfair and unjust to the Free Churchmen, but it was peculiarly unfair and unjust to those who had shown the greatest interest in the cause of education. After all, two-thirds of the nation at the present time lived in Board School Districts. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " that evening by the First Lord of the Treasury. He should give his earnest opposition to the Resolution. § MR. GEORGE DIXON (Birmingham, Edgbaston) said he had noticed that the greatest objection that had been put forward to the Resolution was its injustice and unfairness to the poor Board Schools in the country districts. With all that had been said on that subject he entirely sympathised. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "Resolution. § MR. GEORGE DIXON (Birmingham, Edgbaston) said he had noticed that the greatest objection that had been put forward to the Resolution was its injustice and unfairness to the poor Board Schools in the country districts. With all that had been said on that subject he entirely sympathised. [ Opposition cheers .] Their case was one of the most unexpected and extraordinary injustice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "r of these villages mainly, they would not suffer the loss consequent on that rate. They had gone on all these years under those conditions. The Government had largely increased—nay, doubled—their grant, and, as they had been told very properly that night, the introduction of free education added considerably to their revenue. Therefore, financially, their position had been continually improving. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ions. The Government had largely increased—nay, doubled—their grant, and, as they had been told very properly that night, the introduction of free education added considerably to their revenue. Therefore, financially, their position had been continually improving. [\"Hear, hear!\"] What did they hear now, within the last two years especially, since the Unionist Government had had a majority of 150? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "hear!\"] What did they hear now, within the last two years especially, since the Unionist Government had had a majority of 150? [ Opposition cheers .] They had heard that these schools were in a state of financial decrepitude so alarming that unless something was immediately done they would find that they would be closed and that an enormous expense consequent thereon would be thrown on the rates. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ols were in a state of financial decrepitude so alarming that unless something was immediately done they would find that they would be closed and that an enormous expense consequent thereon would be thrown on the rates. [ Cheers .] He sympathised with 994 those Gentlemen who said that would not be the case. In his opinion it was only the assertion of people who were entirely ignorant of the case. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": ", because they felt it was their duty to give to these children an education that would be efficient and that would gain the end the country had in view in the passing of the Act of 1870. They were told they had been competing with the denominational schools, as some people said to his utter astonishment, for the purpose of killing the denominational schools. That was utterly and entirely untrue. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rmingham School Board, and he did not believe it had ever entered into the mind of any member of a School Board in, any other part of the country. When the School Board was formed more than 20 years ago there was an average attendance of between 16,000 and 17,000 children in Voluntary Schools, and instead of these schools having been injured the average attendance in Voluntary Schools was 25,000. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "inually refused to rate themselves and improve the education given in their schools, whereas in Birmingham they had 995 spent no less than 46s. a head for the elementary education of their children. Under such circumstances the proposal was made to give this large grant of 5s. a head to those 6,000 or 8,000 parishes in country districts who had refused to rate themselves to the extent of a penny. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ". [ Opposition cheers .] When it was said that opposition to that proposal came from enemies of Voluntary Schools who wished them to be wiped out he utterly and entirely denied that. [\"Hear!\"] He would not vote against an additional grant of 5s. to those schools under the circumstances in which they were placed, I but such a grant must be accompanied by an equal grant to large town School Boards. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "Board Schools, the latter having the bottomless pocket of the ratepayers at command and spending so much money on their schools that the Voluntary Schools were injured. His answer to that, in the first place, was—Suppose this 5s. grant made, what would be the result? Would this grant prevent to any extent the competition complained of? Not at all; that competition would go on precisely as before. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rning community. There was no case whatever for 996 denying to School Boards this additional grant. If this principle were violated it would amount to a repeal of the most important principles of the Act of 1870, which directed that grants should be equal to all schools, and throughout all the great towns of England there would be a strong sense of resentment against the unfairness and injustice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "be equal to all schools, and throughout all the great towns of England there would be a strong sense of resentment against the unfairness and injustice. [\"Hear, hear!\"] This feeling would grow year by year, and would become so strong that neither the Government that made the proposal nor Voluntary Schools would in the end gain by the arrangement, and it must be recognised as a very great mistake. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "and there would be a strong sense of resentment against the unfairness and injustice. [\"Hear, hear!\"] This feeling would grow year by year, and would become so strong that neither the Government that made the proposal nor Voluntary Schools would in the end gain by the arrangement, and it must be recognised as a very great mistake. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The grant, if made, should be made to all schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e House, and to some extent to view the questions at issue with the eyes of their own constituencies. He therefore did not apologise for placing before the House the position in which he found himself in respect of his own constituency. He represented one of the most populous parts of Lancashire—a division of the county in which there had never been, and was not, a School Board or a Board School. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d School. [\"Hear, hear!\"] They last year educated their 10,000 children entirely in denominational schools, of which there were 48 in the division, and they raised in the same year £2,168 in voluntary contributions, which was equal to about a 4s. grant. They therefore felt it difficult, denominational educationalists as they undoubtedly were, to refuse this grant of 5s. if it was offered to them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": "and they raised in the same year £2,168 in voluntary contributions, which was equal to about a 4s. grant. They therefore felt it difficult, denominational educationalists as they undoubtedly were, to refuse this grant of 5s. if it was offered to them. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But they were not blind to the great danger that the grant, if given, might be used as a substitute for private subscriptions— 1000 "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ns, which was equal to about a 4s. grant. They therefore felt it difficult, denominational educationalists as they undoubtedly were, to refuse this grant of 5s. if it was offered to them. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But they were not blind to the great danger that the grant, if given, might be used as a substitute for private subscriptions— 1000 [ Opposition cheers ]—and they were unwilling to run that risk. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " as to the condition of their buildings, then this £2,500 (which would be the amount of a 5s. grant) would free them from the necessity for contributions. He could not find in the statement of the Leader of the House that there was to be any safeguard for the continuance of these private subscriptions. He therefore felt great difficulty indeed in following the right hon. Gentleman into the Lobby. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "the schools. It appeared to him that the Bill was one which, except in the matter of size, was as bad as the Bill of last year. If the First Lord of the Treasury had been present during the whole of the discussion he would have seen that the omens were against his Bill already. [\"No, no!\"] This infantile Bill opened its eyes in much the same gloom as that in which its predecessor closed its eyes. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "n Bills such as they had before the House tonight. § MR. ALFRED HOPKINSON (Wilts, Cricklade) thought it had been proved, and, indeed, almost admitted, that if a Bill was passed on the lines of the Resolution before the House it would result in a condition of things which could not possibly be; a permanent settlement of the question, and which would introduce new anomalies and new injustices. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": " of the question, and which would introduce new anomalies and new injustices. [ Opposition cheers .] He said so not from any spirit of hostility to Voluntary Schools. He admitted fully that some Measure of relief was necessary for those schools. But the difficulties and injustices to which he referred were not, merely as between Voluntary and Board Schools, but as between one locality and another—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "poor School Board. Now as between those two parishes he had no preference in this particular regard for one parish over the other, but he could not go down and say it was a fair way of dealing if, out of public funds to which both contributed equally, a large sum was given to the district where there was a Voluntary School and nothing whatever to the district where there was a, poor School Board. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "o down and say to the men in that town, nine-tenths of whom were fair-minded artisans, it was a right and reasonable thing that out of the general taxes to which they contribute their full quota practically nothing should be given to them, while a large amount was given to some neighbouring district which was no more populous, which might be richer, but which had neglected its educational duties? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " which might be richer, but which had neglected its educational duties? [ Opposition cheers .] The only way out of the difficulty was to have some distinct and definite pledge that the question should be dealt with in favour of Board Schools, at all events the poorer Board Schools, on some early day. The mere statement that the question would be dealt with \"if there was time\" was not good enough. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "tement that the question would be dealt with \"if there was time\" was not good enough. [ Opposition cheers .] The right hon. Member for Bodmin had suggested one solution. Another would be, that before the Bill passed the House another Bill should be introduced for making a grant to Board Schools. If that were done then it might be possible to support the proposals of the Government; otherwise not. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Loud Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "e Government were there with their support, it was because the statements such Members had made to the electors at the General Election were thought to be in accordance with justice and fairness. If this scheme were to stand and to stand alone without a distinct pledge of a further Bill he must confess that it would be impossible to make the same appeal to the electors on the same platform again. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " the speeches delivered from the Ministerial side of the House, that the Bill, if passed into law, would simply add fuel to the controversial fire. It would increase the antagonism between the Voluntary and Board School systems, and, although he had no doubt as to what the issue would be in that struggle, in the interests of education and social peace he greatly desired that it should be avoided. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " said he should support the Resolution, because he believed it would improve education in the Voluntary Schools, and especially those in the country districts. At the same time he was bound to sympathise with the expression of regret which had come from one of his hon. Friends that the Government had not been able to provide in the proposed Bill some relief for necessitous Board School districts. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " School Boards did give admirable religious instruction, but there were many districts in the country where the ratepayers probably preferred to pay voluntary rates—not subscriptions—in order to avoid what they thought the unnecessary extravagance of School Board expenditure. The present policy of hon. Members opposite, was not so much an assault on the Voluntary Schools as a starving out policy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "f the Measure to Board Schools, if the House desired to do so. He put it to the First Lord of the Treasury, whether it would not be wise to make such an alteration in the wording of the Bill. That course would have been a much wiser one than passing an unnecessary and a stringent Resolution to tie the hands of the House so as to prevent equal justice being done to the Voluntary and Board Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "he Voluntary and Board Schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] § MR. ERNEST GRAY (West Ham, N.) said that the Debate that evening had been remarkable for more reasons than one. He had noticed with no little satisfaction, the improved friendliness of tone adopted by hon. Members on his side of the House towards the School Boards, and the absence of attack on the Voluntary Schools by hon. Gentlemen opposite. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "atisfaction, the improved friendliness of tone adopted by hon. Members on his side of the House towards the School Boards, and the absence of attack on the Voluntary Schools by hon. Gentlemen opposite. [ Cheers .] It appeared as though the Bill of last Session had 1015 really served a good purpose in bringing both sides of the House more nearly to an understanding on the great education question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " of the House more nearly to an understanding on the great education question. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That being the case, he could not help expressing regret that the Government had not seen their way to take advantage of the rapprochement . and to bring in a scheme which, while doing justice to both Voluntary and Board Schools, would have met the general views of the House and of the country at large. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s, would have met the general views of the House and of the country at large. [ Cheers .] He could conceive of but one good excuse for dealing with only one section of the Government Scheme at the present time—namely, that they intended to pass this Measure and bring it into operation by March 31st, so that the Voluntary Schools might draw their grants up to the end of the present financial year. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " the present time—namely, that they intended to pass this Measure and bring it into operation by March 31st, so that the Voluntary Schools might draw their grants up to the end of the present financial year. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That was the general belief in the country, and he must say that it was one of the surprises of the evening to find now that the Government did not intend to take that course. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ow existed throughout the country in regard to the Board Schools, and that sense of injustice unless it was removed would eventually drag down the Voluntary Schools. He was therefore pleading not only in the interests of the poorer School Board districts, but also in the interests of the Voluntary Schools that the two Measures should have been placed before the Committee at one and the same time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ar!\"] His sympathy with the Voluntary School system, and with the Church of England had been measured by many a Sunday's work in their behalf during the last 25 years, and he hoped, therefore, that no one would accuse him of attempting to deprive the Voluntary Schools of the funds which he knew they needed so much, because he pleaded that the necessitous Board Schools should receive equal relief. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ot need relief, and the managers of which, if left to themselves would hardly apply for relief under this Bill, and they certainly would not do so if any conditions were attached to the granting of that relief, and to him it seemed to be folly to propose any scheme which provided that those schools which did not need relief should share in the money which was so much wanted by the poorer schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "urately describing Preston, as a town which had successfully resisted the advent of a School Board, partly on account of its love for Voluntary Schools, and partly on account of its dislike of the School Board rate, and that the number of those who had resisted it on account of their dislike of the School Board rate was very much larger than those who had shown their loyalty to Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/military-works-money", "section": "military-works-money", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "t hon. Gentleman. 1023 If that were a wrong impression, some other time than a quarter past 12 oclock should, he thought, be chosen for explaining it, so that the public could be made to understand that it was an entire delusion which had been disavowed by Her Majesty's Government. He thought it had created almost as much astonishment and amusement as the Bill which was introduced that afternoon. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/military-works-money", "section": "military-works-money", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Oh!\" and laughter .", "preceding_text": "g it, so that the public could be made to understand that it was an entire delusion which had been disavowed by Her Majesty's Government. He thought it had created almost as much astonishment and amusement as the Bill which was introduced that afternoon. [ Laughter .] The Fortification of London Bill and the Government Education Bill were two Bills which had taken the public entirely by surprise. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/01/military-works-money", "section": "military-works-money", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " to erect fortifications round London, or whether they were not. § THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, (Sir MICHAEL HICKS BEACH,) Bristol, W. hoped he could set the apprehensions of the right hon. Gentleman at rest. The Government were not going to erect a series of fortifications round London; they were simply going to complete the work which was undertaken by the right hon. Gentleman himself. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t in this unexampled and double calamity which had fallen on India the Viceroy and his advisers might have the support of their lordships on both sides of the House. He was satisfied that if they were successful in combating this great evil they would establish a greater claim even than the remembrance of our military prowess or naval supremacy on the loyalty and affection of the people of India. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "they could obtain, there was no probability whatever of trade dealing with the difficulty, and the result was satisfactory. It did not interfere with trade in other parts of the country, and the people were supplied with food. But what I wish to say on the present occasion is that I conceive this to be a matter which may be confidently and safely left to the discretion of the Government of India. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "I have the most complete confidence that they will act with energy and promptitude. I desire also to express my opinion, as far as I am able to judge, that the full confidence of the people of this country may be placed in Lord Elgin and in those who are assisting him, and I do not think that any action of your Lordships is required by the circumstances of the case or is in any respect desirable. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e mentioned these facts because his experience was a recent one. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY I cannot speak at all with the experience of my noble Friend Lord Northbrook, or that of the noble Lord who has been Governor of Madras, but I merely wish to echo the feeling which Lord North-brook has expressed—that in this great calamity we must trust to the Government of India to take the necessary measures. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " itself into the country, then indeed it will require all the energies which can possibly be displayed by the Government of India to cope with it. With regard to the statistics promised by the noble Lord, I do hope that in a crisis of this kind the not too numerous Civil Servants of the Government in India will not be vexed by being obliged to spend their time in making too elaborate returns. 899 "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tatistics promised by the noble Lord, I do hope that in a crisis of this kind the not too numerous Civil Servants of the Government in India will not be vexed by being obliged to spend their time in making too elaborate returns. 899 [\"Hear, hear!\"] Perhaps one of the greatest curses of the administration of India is the enormous amount of paper work now imposed upon the servants of the Government—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ed upon the servants of the Government—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and in a visitation of this kind, when every man will be employed to his utmost capacity and energy in connection with the relief works, I hope they may be allowed to pursue the more urgent work of looking after the distress and not be required to furnish too elaborate statistics of what is going on until after the calamity has been overcome. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/feb/01", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/feb/01/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "y of State. All that has been asked for is a rough calculation, and returns such as can be prepared from the local registers of deaths will suffice for the purpose, provided the information is prompt and is telegraphed. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY I do not make the least complaint, but what I meant to deprecate was the pressure upon the Government which may come hereafter for more and more information. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/relief-of-kassala", "section": "relief-of-kassala", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ontents of that particular document is, then the House is entitled to see the document itself. But I do not understand that any question of that kind arises here. A Minister is not bound, having stated in answer to a question or other wise that there have been communications generally to such and such an effect with a foreign Government, to produce the document which would bear out his statement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/relief-of-kassala", "section": "relief-of-kassala", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e the Chairman of Committees or yourself; but is there not a clear distinction when a Minister specifically refers to a certain document which he refuses to produce? § MR. SPEAKER There is a great difference between specifically referring to communications generally and specifically referring to the contents of a particular document. Nothing of the latter kind seems to have taken place here, "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "alarm, to prevent more serious developments, and to afford protection to the refugees. In answer to the supplementary question put by my hon. Friend below the gangway, I have already in the answer I have read described generally the steps taken by the representatives of the Powers in Crete. I can assure him that we are as anxious to protect the Mussulman as the Christian inhabitants of the island—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " I can assure him that we are as anxious to protect the Mussulman as the Christian inhabitants of the island—[ cheers ]—and that the steps which I have described as taken by our officials have been directed to that end. But so far as the reports—of which I have read a great many—lead me to form an opinion, it is that the maltreatment appears to be about evenly distributed between the two parties. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/royal-bounty-fund-george-brooks", "section": "royal-bounty-fund-george-brooks", "cue_text": "cries of \"Order, order!\"", "preceding_text": ". As regards the first paragraph of the question, no rules or regulations have been laid down by Parliament on this subject, but there is a body of official tradition which has been handed on from one First Lord to another, and to that tradition and practice I have endeavoured to conform. § MR. DAVITT May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that he would find a resolution adopted by this House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/royal-bounty-fund-george-brooks", "section": "royal-bounty-fund-george-brooks", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " MR. DAVITT May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that he would find a resolution adopted by this House—[ cries of \"Order, order!\"]—concerning the distribution of this money. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I am not aware of that. § MR. T. P. O'CONNOR (Liverpool, Scotland) Does the right hon. Gentleman desire to make further explanation of his having allocated this money to Mr. Brooks? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter, and cheers .", "preceding_text": " the Under Secretary for War. I observe also on the Paper a notice relating to what are called the proposals of the Government. We have no knowledge of any proposals of the Government. There has been no notice of any such proposals. I have heard it rumoured that a statement has been made about the military plans of the Government in another place. But we are bound not to know anything about that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " heard it rumoured that a statement has been made about the military plans of the Government in another place. But we are bound not to know anything about that. [ Opposition laughter, and cheers .] The Army Estimates have apparently been opened by the Government in another place, and it would be out of order to know anything on the subject. But there are a few people I believe who read newspapers—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "the other House. § SIR W. HARCOURT Not on financial statements. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY Is there any difference? (\"Hear, hear!\"] I thought the right hon. Gentleman laid it down that he never know about what went on in the other House, and that if by accident he heard from some obscure sources what passed there he never dared to make use of his knowledge in the House of Commons. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "fleet could not be watching or engaging our fleet and at the same time delivering an attack in force against one of our coaling stations. And yet the Empire was spending 39 millions sterling on land forces and fixed defences. India, of course, contributed towards these Estimates, and so did the Crown Colonies, but the latter contributed at a very different rate to that at which India contributed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " that our military system was by far the dearest in the world. There was an attempt made to explain the enormous cost of our military system by the absence of military conscription in this country, but large deductions had to be made on the other side. For instance, the cost of forage in Germany or France was overwhelmingly greater than our own—partly because we had hardly any horses in our Army. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "o close comparison between the cost of our Army and those of foreign countries was possible; he merely protested against this argument of conscription being considered as a complete answer to the question of cost. Then he would ask what return we got for this cost in the shape of an Army that could really be employed for those purposes for which it was possible to contemplate our Army being used. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " they were not fit; he should have thought they were fit to go to war without their Reserve men, or, at any rate, could have picked up sufficient men to go to war very quickly. The Guards were the force in this country which, next to some battalions of Volunteers, were most easily mobilised; but they differed from the Volunteers in being under highly skilled officers and noncommissioned officers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t from the advice which they received and communicated to the House. They, like himself, were amateurs, however great the pains they took; and when a new system was being established, or a now departure made, while admitting that their past system had failed and that they were engaged in patching it up, the House ought to be furnished with some kind of military authority in support of the scheme. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ght to come to the House and say what was his opinion and their opinion of the situation. The Government ought to have the courage to back him up, because otherwise they misled the country by the weight of the Commander-in-Chief's name. The fact was that the House and the country were receiving the opinions on what was evidently a complicated disease, not of the physician but of unknown amateurs. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " [ Cheers .] He thought that the Government had on this occasion a great opportunity. They made a new departure by appointing a Committee of the Cabinet for defence, and they made certain variations in the reforms of the late Secretary for War; and he believed that public opinion would have supported the Government in any drastic and effective measures to remedy the present condition of the Army. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ee of the Cabinet for defence, and they made certain variations in the reforms of the late Secretary for War; and he believed that public opinion would have supported the Government in any drastic and effective measures to remedy the present condition of the Army. [ Cheers .] He was, how-ever, greatly disappointed at the miser-able makeshift proposal which the Government had offered to the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "on stations they would become garrison troops. Then the battalions left at home would undoubtedly, though not in so large a degree, undergo the deterioration to which Line battalions were subject by having to keep up their corresponding battalions abroad. It was said that Lord Methuen approved the Government scheme He was one of the best generals of his age which we or any other country possessed—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "sentry duty. The question of recruiting was one with which he had nothing to do, but he did hope that if any difficulty was found in getting recruits, and if the Brigade of Guards was in consequence to lose its fine physique, some steps would be taken to stop any deterioration. Lord Methuen added that he should not be doing his duty if he did not point out the dangers and difficulties in the way. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": " with some modifications, they had received the public approval of Lord Roberts and General Chesney. The system that Lord Roberts suggested was three years' service for Home, with a prolongation for India of the men who wished to remain for nine years' service. That was the essence of Lord Roberts's scheme. It had been said there would be difficulty in getting sufficient men for the long service. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "reased, as he presumed they would be this year, by volunteers from among short-service men. He should be prepared himself to suggest a plan by which such a test could be made. If he were asked what the expenditure of the country on its Army 1578 ought to be, he answered that he would be prepared, and he believed the country was prepared, to spend whatever was necessary for our life and existence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " he answered that he would be prepared, and he believed the country was prepared, to spend whatever was necessary for our life and existence. [ Ministerial cheers .] But they wanted to have it shown that we were, on the total computation of this immense expenditure, allotting a proper share to the Army and Navy respectively, and spending the portion allotted to the Army in the most effective way. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e admission of the Government themselves, our present Army was not able to perform, to vote for his Motion. § MAJOR RASCH (Essex, S. E.) seconded the Motion, and said that, although the right hon. Baronet had called himself an amateur, he was yet an admitted expert in all matters connected with civil and military administration, and his reputation extended far beyond the walls of that House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "t hon. Baronet had called himself an amateur, he was yet an admitted expert in all matters connected with civil and military administration, and his reputation extended far beyond the walls of that House. [ Cheers .] In his opinion, the charge of inefficiency of the Home Army was caused, not because Parliament voted insufficient money, but because the money was improperly and inefficiently spent. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "riticism of every arrangement connected with the Army at home and in the Colonies, in the course of the two speeches which had been made in support of the Motion, must wonder how it was—to quote the concluding words of his hon. Friend the Member for South-East Essex—that men who knew that the Army was neither useful nor efficient could ask the House to spend a large extra sum in bolstering it up. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "hon. Friend's idea was as to the process 1583 of mind by which a number of men sitting on the Treasury Bench could so far forget all the attributes on which all Members of the House prided themselves as to unite in bolstering up a rotten Army system and in making fresh demands for money without satisfying themselves that the money could be effectively spent in improving the condition of the Army. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " fresh demands for money without satisfying themselves that the money could be effectively spent in improving the condition of the Army. [ Cheers .] He thought the fact that nine Secretaries of State had supported the system introduced by Lord Cardwell—modified since then in some minor respects—ought to be some guarantee that that system was not so absolutely rotten as it had just been described. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ent on the Army; but the right hon. Gentleman never threw out a suggestion, in the course of his speech, as to how that better value was to be obtained for the expenditure. The right hon. Gentleman had, indeed, made one suggestion—that was that the soldiers should be more highly paid. Of course, they would all be glad to see that done, but it would mean an enormous plunge into the National purse. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "glad to see that done, but it would mean an enormous plunge into the National purse. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The right hon. Gentleman had put forward a scheme which had to some extent received the imprimatur of Lord Roberts. What would be the result of such a scheme if adopted? It would magnify every evil under which our Army system now suffered, and put upon India an increased charge of £640,000 a year. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d put forward a scheme which had to some extent received the imprimatur of Lord Roberts. What would be the result of such a scheme if adopted? It would magnify every evil under which our Army system now suffered, and put upon India an increased charge of £640,000 a year. [ Cheers .] Let the House consider what our Army had to do. There was no other army in the world subject to similar conditions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "sary; thirdly, we had to provide the possibility of sending two army corps on foreign service; and, fourth, we had to provide for the exigencies of possible small wars, and he would remind the House that the small wars which we had undertaken—often surrounded with great difficulties—had been carried out with more success than had attended the efforts of foreign Powers under similar circumstances. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "which could be mobilised for the defence even of its own country without calling on the reserves. It was true that our reservists were not called out for training as foreign reserves were; but the men could not be called up arbitrarily without interfering with their employment. It would, of course, be an advantage to train the reservists to a greater extent, but it could not be done compulsorily. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "earnt in eight years of active service? In the German infantry the soldier was 20 months with the colours and two or three years in the reserve, but the men were trained ceaselessly, morning, noon, and night, and he would ask what sort of recruits would be obtained in this country if a man's life was made practically a slavery, as was the case with the German soldier in the first year of service? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " He would be a bold War Minister who would come down to that House and propose a similar system of training for the British soldier. The French soldier was three years with the 1585 colours and seven years in the reserve, and the Austrian soldier the same. Therefore, the British soldier spent more than twice the time with the colours and a shorter period with the reserve than the foreign soldier. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "st was a cavalry corps, and the men were reported, after a month's training, to be \"fit to take their places in the ranks.\" The reports went on as to the other regiments—\" efficient in drill,\" \"efficient in drill and military duties,\" \"efficiency excellent,\" \"thoroughly efficient,\" and so on, the reports generally being to the effect that the Reserve men were efficient and tit for active service. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "aces in the ranks.\" The reports went on as to the other regiments—\" efficient in drill,\" \"efficient in drill and military duties,\" \"efficiency excellent,\" \"thoroughly efficient,\" and so on, the reports generally being to the effect that the Reserve men were efficient and tit for active service. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That experience ought at once to dispose of the idea that our Reserve force was a sham. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ct that the Reserve men were efficient and tit for active service. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That experience ought at once to dispose of the idea that our Reserve force was a sham. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Whatever were the faults of Lord Cardwell's scheme, it, at all events, had this advantage—that it had provided for the first time an efficient Reserve of 80,000 men fit to take their places in the Line regiments. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ovided for the first time an efficient Reserve of 80,000 men fit to take their places in the Line regiments. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean had complained that there was a deficiency of field artillery at home, in comparison with the strength of the infantry. He might state that the field artillery had now been increased to the extent sufficient for three Army corps. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hat there were no field guns attached to the great force of Volunteer infantry in the country; but, surely, if the Volunteer infantry was to be regarded as an integral part of the national defences, it was only right that they should take into account the 200 mobile gains in the hands of the Volunteer artillery, which would, in the event of invasion, be undoubtedly used in support of the infantry—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "anœuvres. They hoped in the next year to have the large tract of ground on Salisbury Plain, to which reference had previously been made in the House, and for the purchase of which the necessary estimate had already been taken. The ground would be new to the troops and new to the generals, and would enable troops to be manœuvred on a much larger scale than at Alder-shot or elsewhere. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ould be new to the troops and new to the generals, and would enable troops to be manœuvred on a much larger scale than at Alder-shot or elsewhere. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The right hon. Gentleman asked, \"Do we get a force for any of the purposes of the Empire in any way equivalent to its expense?\" and he had expressed his regret that the demand was so small. He did not think it was a small demand. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "3;uvred on a much larger scale than at Alder-shot or elsewhere. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The right hon. Gentleman asked, \"Do we get a force for any of the purposes of the Empire in any way equivalent to its expense?\" and he had expressed his regret that the demand was so small. He did not think it was a small demand. [\"Hear, hear!\"] It was the largest increase which had been made to the Army for 25 years. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hind him had concentrated their attention on the infantry. What were the facts about the infantry? He 1587 hoped the right hon. Baronet would not think him discourteous if he declined, at that moment to enter into the question of the Guards. It was to be raised on a distinct Motion later in the evening, and he thought it would be convenient to the House that the discussion should take place then. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " The proposal of the Government, if it was accepted, as he hoped it would be, by the House, would prevent the necessity of raising six new Line battalions, as it would mean that instead of having 76 Line battalions abroad and 65 at home, they would in future have 73 abroad and 69 at home. The right hon. Baronet said, \"Why didn't you make a clean business of it and raise four more new battalions?\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": ", so far from there being, on the part of the military heads of the War Office, any feeling that they had been defrauded of what they might naturally have expected, the proposals of the Government, taken as a whole, had been gratefully accepted by one and all not merely as an instalment, but as, in the words of the Commander-in-Chief, \"such a step forward as the Army has not made for many years.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ed to the proposals of the Government had been very different to that of the Gentleman who had spoken in the House that afternoon. After all, they could only be guided by those who had the responsibility. They had followed them, he believed, not only in the main in the proposals they had made, but they had followed them, he believed, to the whole extent of the soldiers they were likely to obtain. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ion of the Army at homo if, after a man had done three years' service at home, he was to have the alternative either of going into the Reserve or of going to India for nine years? Lord Roberts was a great authority, but there were some statistics which were perhaps even higher than Lord Roberts. Those were the statistics of the health of the Army in India during the closing years of long service. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "re were some statistics which were perhaps even higher than Lord Roberts. Those were the statistics of the health of the Army in India during the closing years of long service. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Before the end of long service 65 per 1,000 of the Army of India were dying. The cost of India annually represented, as compared with the previous rate, the difference between 65 per 1,000 and 17 per 1,000. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "dian Army or there might be a return to the long-service system, which, as Lord Wolseley had observed, would be like making water run up hill, but there was no scheme on which reliance could be placed with that certainty which could be relied on as to results, as was the case with the short service, and until a better system was produced, surely it must be said that short service held \"the field. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "which could not be surpassed by any system which could be suggested in place of it, and which, if the House would only give the extra regiments now proposed, would enable the system to have a fair trial, enabling line regiments to fulfil the part they were intended to bear, and carry out a well-conceived plan which, in the opinion of the highest authority, would secure the efficiency of our Army. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "cording to Lord Methuen, disease, heavy duty, and heavy drinking. The circumscribed space which they were to occupy must result in contributing to their inefficiency, whilst the way it was suggested to remedy that by making the terms of service shorter would not prove effective, and would add greatly to the expense. He was of opinion that short service had in the main been of substantial benefit. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ly to the expense. He was of opinion that short service had in the main been of substantial benefit. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The defect of the remarks of the right hon. Baronet the Member for the Forest of Dean was that he had no remedy to propose. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman, if the present system was put in the melting-pot, was there a single person ready with any effective substitute for it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " was put in the melting-pot, was there a single person ready with any effective substitute for it. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He himself did not know of any such person. With the exception of the proposal relating to the Guards, he approved of the scheme of the Government, which he should support in the hope that this one step in the right direction would be followed up by further steps in succeeding years. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "in this discussion, as he had given expression to his views on many previous occasions. But, when he heard the right hon. Gentleman, speaking on behalf of the War Office, appeal to the fact that so many of his predecessors had taken the same view that was taken by the present Administration on that subject, he thought it only right that he should express his entire confirmation of that statement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "say that soldier after soldier had gone to the War Office, and they also had found reason greatly to modify the opinions they had previously entertained, and he doubted very much whether they could find any soldier at the present day who had occupied a high responsible position connected with the Army who would endorse the view put before the House by the right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "no knowledge or experience of all the difficulties surrounding the question. There was one point he should like to urge upon those who had a conscious or unconscious inclination towards the system of long service—namely, that if the right hon. Baronet's Motion was good as against the present Government, it was good as against the whole series of Governments from Lord Cardwell's time down to this. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ", and because the Recruiting Commission had produced evidence which could not be resisted, and which showed that they could not recruit the Army under the long-service system. It therefore came to be a question of short service or nothing. There was really no choice in the matter, and those who were responsible at the time had to face the necessity of altering the old long service pension system. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "retched existence. They had this to be said for the present system—that, if illogical from many points of view, it suited their conditions, and what they endeavoured to do was to keep the men who went to India long enough for efficiency, yet sparing as much as possible expense to the Indian Government, while at the same time not keeping them so long as to do material damage to their constitution. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ller, and others before the Wantage Committee. Lord Wolseley was rather apt to make strong statements, and in some of his evidence he had made rather sweeping admissions as to the condition of the Army. But did Lord Wolseley, Sir Redvers Buller, and Sir Evelyn Wood, who had given that kind of evidence before the Wantage Committee, endorse the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman? Not one of them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the occasion and the matter of which he was then speaking, and he repeated it now. It was when the infantry was organised in double battalions and localised as it was now over the country; he did not hesitate to say that it would have been better to have formed larger regiments with more battalions, to have had smaller districts, and thus have saved a great deal of expense in barracks and staffs. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " have formed larger regiments with more battalions, to have had smaller districts, and thus have saved a great deal of expense in barracks and staffs. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He appealed to anyone in the House what would have been done if the A-shire regiment had been sent to the B-shire district, or the colonel of the C-shire Militia had had to serve under the Commanding Officer of the D-shire district. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "[ Laughter .] They were beset on all hands by county prejudices and jealousies, and by the traditions and susceptibilities of the regiments. There were enormous difficulties in dealing with the distribution of regiments of the Line. Take the case of the Cameron Highlanders. He made a feeble effort to dispose of it, because it was an utterly anomalous regiment. As a Scotchman his heart bled for it—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "strong against him. But now, the Government which the right hon. Gentleman represented had a great 1596 courage. Here was a single battalion which, according to the last return, was kept in a state of efficiency by 11 recruits drawn from its own district; and to get over the difficulty the happy thought had occurred to the Government to have two battalions and divide the 11 recruits between them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eady spoken of the system, and said all he need say about it. The question the House had to consider was whether the present system had worked thoroughly. He had listened with great pleasure, as he always did, to his hon. and gallant Friend who preceded him in this Debate, than whom there was no one with a wider knowledge of the Army or more qualified to advise the House on any military question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "n the evils and possibilities of cure which attach to the present state of things. Holding strongly the view that our present Army system, although it was easy to find fault with it, could not be replaced by any other which would not have ten times more evils or which would at all come near it in meeting the various requirements of the Service, he need hardly say he should support the Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t that determined the necessity for strengthening the garrisons abroad? If it was proposed to keep so many battalions at Malta—the 1604 very flower of the Army with the colours outside India—surely the House had a right to know what were the broad grounds on which it was proposed to keep seven battalions locked up at Malta? In this matter he did not consider himself tied by any Party obligations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nto a question—apart from India—of offence. The naval base must be secured from the cruiser attacks of which the Duke of Devonshire spoke, but he could not see that seven battalions were wanted at Malta, besides an enormous force of artillery, engineers, and sub-marine mines, to resist cruiser attacks. If the fleet was sufficient, any organised attack on British possessions abroad was impossible. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "gard to these preparations for great military attacks been settled, not by the military authorities, but by the most serious consideration of the possibility of an enormous military force parading about the sea to attack our possessions, while we held the supremacy of the sea On the answer the right hon. Gentleman was able to give to that question certainly depended into which Lobby he should go. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ons to the division, while we were content with three squadrons to the regiment and 18 to the division. It would be well to follow the standard of Powers which had had so much reason to study the matter, and which had at present such magnificent cavalry divisions. If he had expressed himself more warmly than he intended, it was simply in the interests of the service which he had so much at heart. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "es, and the experiment was proved to be an unqualified success. The Secretary of State for War stated that those stations absorbed no fewer than 18 battalions; but if the coaling stations were placed under the Admiralty, and garrisoned, if only partially, by marines, many battalions would be relieved. He could not understand there being any objection on the part of the Navy to undertake the work. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "stem would be not to admit any recruit into a battalion until he was 20 years of age, but if it was necessary to enlist recruits at a lower age, then they ought to be placed first of all in training 1615 establishments, similarly to training commissioned officers at Woolwich and Sandhurst. As long as recruiting at the present age went on, he held that satisfactory results could never be obtained. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "first things he would abolish in the present system. They could not expect finality in the matter, however, until the Army was so reformed and the soldier so treated that he would be made to feel that the greatest punishment that could be awarded him was to be dismissed from the service, and until there was as great competition to serve in the rank and file as there was in the commissioned ranks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "§ THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR,), Manchester, E. while not wishing to interfere with the Debate, ventured to point out that there was another Amendment following on the Paper which raised a question of very great interest, which deserved to be debated, and on which the public would desire to have some information. He alluded to the subject of the additions to the Guards. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ject of the additions to the Guards. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He therefore thought it would be for the general convenience of the House that the present Debate should be brought to a close with or without a Division, so that the other subject might be considered. When his right hon. Friend the Under Secretary made his statement on Friday there would be every opportunity of discussing the general question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "uld be moved for a reduction in the number of men, which would have the effect of preventing any hon. Member from dealing with the subjects which were now before the House. The two front Benches were agreed on 1616 the present policy adopted in regard to the Army; they had similarly agreed before, and the result of such agreement had always been the breakdown and failure of our Army organisation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " other in the Suez Canal. There never would be regimental solidarity with one battalion at home and the other abroad. The depot system for recruits had undoubtedly been a failure; to those brick buildings scattered all over the country were sent recruits and some old veterans who were employed there in cleaning pots and pans, looking after vegetables, and doing other military duties of that kind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "rs to the recruits. When the men thus under training began to know their masters and to become soldiers they were sent away to another battalion. Let the House look at the contrary effect of the system pursued in regard to the Royal Marines. The recruits for this force were sent to large depôts and kept there for nine months. They were then turned out the best drilled soldiers in the world—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " system pursued in regard to the Royal Marines. The recruits for this force were sent to large depôts and kept there for nine months. They were then turned out the best drilled soldiers in the world—[ cheers ]—and sent straight to the various divisions. To make any comparison between the line battalions at home and the Royal Marines, either at home or abroad, was perfectly idle and absurd. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " of Guards, and it had succeeded after the long term of seven years had failed. 1617 They had a long service in the Royal Marines, and there they had, side by side, a three years' service and a 12 years' service, both producing admirable results. Between those two they had a seven, or eight, or six years' service, which they pretended was a short-service system, and which was an absolute failure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e system, and which was an absolute failure. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Their practice in the matter was contrary to common sense. They expected to get good soldiers and plenty of them, and yet they told every man or boy on enlisting that they would keep him for six years and then turn him adrift a ruined man, unless he got aid from some charitable institution, to which he must go and beg the right to live. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " to suggest that that sort of system could attract the right class of men. He asked any hon. Gentleman to tell him of one single instance since the short-service system started of any battalion in the British Service—except the Guards or on the Indian Establishment—that had paraded on its war strength in war. As a matter of fact, their Commander-in-Chief, or others, had selected their battalions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"No.\"", "preceding_text": " said that these men were very fine fellows. 80 they were. Those who survived the perils and temptations of Indian life grew up to be fine soldiers; but they came back here to be ruined and to go into the workhouses. Only last Session he asked that these men might receive a little more consideration at the hands of the Government—men who were discharged into the workhouses by scores and hundreds. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d pride their officers took in the units they commanded, and they must go and see for themselves what these battalions were. He did not care where hon. Members went, they would find the same miserable, tedious sham going on of these battalions being treated as depôts for other battalions. [\"Hoar, hear!\"] What he believed they wanted was a recasting of the system on some common-sense lines. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "mbers who had followed. But it seemed to him, if the right hon. Gentleman established his point, if he had shown that the state of the Army at the present time was unsatisfactory, that 1620 it was inefficient and required to be reorganised, then he had done all that could be expected from a civilian Member of the House, the solution of the difficulties resting with the paid officers of the Crown. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t as the Army Corps leaders in Germany, and only by laying the foundation of some such system would the organisation of the military force of the country be effective? What the right hon. Gentleman was doing was simply patchwork. The War Office was an old building, and whilst to an old building they might put a bow window, or an attic, or a new storey, they could not adapt it to new requirements. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ar!\"] They must start at the very foundation and build upwards. If the right hon. Gentleman would not do this the money he was now asking to be voted for the Army would be wasted, for he would not get any effective return for it. It was a question of organisation, and unless the right hon. Gentleman took that in hand and insisted upon its being real, complete success would not attend his efforts. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rybody—they had got it in their hands and would keep it if they could. But if the right hon. Gentleman would speak with the strength of the Government and of public opinion behind him, he could say to the War Office that it should be reduced to the limits of any general staff of the foreign armies, and that these staff officers and clerks who were superfluous should go to the Army Corps district. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "and clerks who were superfluous should go to the Army Corps district. [\"Hear, hear!\"] 1622 He pressed it upon the right hon. Gentleman as a matter of organisation, and he would tell him that, if he genuinely asked for a solution of the difficulties in connection with the British Army in this country, that solution could only come from such a system of decentralisation as he had mapped out to him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear?\"", "preceding_text": "aining, and when they were called out to fill up weak battalions, as had been done in the case of Egypt, they had in some instances been found to be extremely insubordinate and difficult to deal with. But why were the Reserves not called out oftener? It was said that if called out they would not get employment. They got retaining pay, and why not call them out at least for a few days every year\"? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "ng pay, and why not call them out at least for a few days every year\"? [\"Hear, hear?\"] He had been in the Army 30 years, and he had never known the Militia Reserve to be called out. He believed that any hon. Member who was in the service would bear him out in that statement. He maintained that when the Reserve men had been called out in England they had been found to give a great deal of trouble. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ey came down to that House with a mere makeshift proposal to carry out the linked battalion system. He would not detain the House longer at that late hour of the night, and he could only apologise for having occupied its time at such length. The matter, however, was one of great importance, and it was this fact that had led him to trespass so long upon the good nature and indulgence of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d on the Paper— That the proposal to station three battalions of the Guards in the Mediterranean requires further serious consideration at the hands of her Majesty's Government, said it was most distasteful to him to criticise any of the measures brought forward by the Government. He knew he was pledged to support them on every possible occasion, and he thought he had fairly redeemed that pledge. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rd by the Government. He knew he was pledged to support them on every possible occasion, and he thought he had fairly redeemed that pledge. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But what he had to criticise that evening was not an error of policy he considered it an error of judgment which might easily be altered in the respect of which he was going to speak without any difficulty or loss of dignity to the Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "artering of a portion of the Guards in the Mediterranean. The officers of the Guards, though they did hold very serious objection to the plan, objected not from any selfish motive or because they entertained the slightest objection to serving Her Majesty in any quarter of the globe, but because they believed the plan would be detrimental to the Brigade of Guards and would diminish its efficiency. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ter of deep regret that on this the first occasion for some years when the Government had been able to bring forward a measure of this kind he could not profess himself in sympathy with them. He did not speak from the sentimental, but from the practical point of view. He was a practical soldier, having been acting adjutant of the Guards for some years, and afterwards adjutant of his own regiment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " the recruiting party that the battalion was brought up to the required strength. At the present time the Coldstreams and the Scots Greys were also below strength. The fact was that in the years 1894 and 1895 the labour market was in a bad condition, recruits were plentiful, and so the standard had to be raised. But with the advent of a Unionist Government came prosperity, in some trades at least—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d to be raised. But with the advent of a Unionist Government came prosperity, in some trades at least—[ laughter ]—with the result that the number of recruits fell off and the standard had to be lowered. Therefore, considering the actual condition of the Brigade of Guards at the present moment—under strength and with the standard lowered—it was hardly an opportune time to try this new experiment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/military-forces-maintenance", "section": "military-forces-maintenance", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " people. They were also extremely popular, and in the case of any public disturbance, which unfortunately sometimes occurred, the Guards, composed as they were of steady and trained men, would be much better able to deal prudently with an unruly street mob than a Line battalion made up chiefly of recruits. That was a consideration again not altogether unworthy of the attention of the authorities. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eeded with on Thursday, and further that notice would be given of a Resolution on the subject, caused some uneasiness. He supposed if the Education Bill was to be taken on Thursday the Military Works Bill would not be taken this week? § MR. G. C. T. BARTLEY (Islington, N.) said he shared the idea that the Education Bill was set down pro forma for Thursday but would not be taken until Monday. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/feb/08", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/feb/08/voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "section": "voluntary-schools-aid-grant-etc", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "hursday but would not be taken until Monday. [\"Hear, hear!\"] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY said so far as he was aware the only statement on this subject was that he made in answer to a question from the late Vice President of the Committee of the Council on Education, when he distinctly said the Bill would come on for Second Reading on Thursday, and that he believed was the general wish. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/business-of-the-house-ballot-for-bills", "section": "business-of-the-house-ballot-for-bills", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "suggestions of the hon. Member for Louth. Those suggestions would involve the abolition of the customary procedure of the House for many generations, and could not be accepted without consideration. In view of the fact that these suggestions had been made, he would not ask the House to make the present Motion a Standing Order, but would reserve the whole subject for consideration in another year. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "anger of relying too far upon such official reports. He therefore begged the right hon. Gentleman to make special inquiry into the cases of the five prisoners. Our whole prison system ought to be thoroughly investigated, unless we were prepared to admit that our prisons were established not for the purpose of correcting our prisoners and of reforming them, but of killing them or driving them mad. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e were no two opinions on this question in Ireland, and the release of these men had been demanded by meetings of the Irish people, by corporations and boards of guardians, all over the country. The Lord Mayor of Dublin had twice presented petitions at the Bar of that House, and unless these men were released it would appear that no regard was paid to the unanimous desire 125 of the Irish people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "sentences as sentences of 20 years' imprisonment. Taking that to be generally admitted, the men for whom he pleaded would be entitled to release within a year; but even another year's incarceration might be too much for them. They might be driven to death or to a lunatic asylum before the expiration of another 12 months. He did not think the security of the Empire would be in the least endangered—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": " power of the Boer Government, according to the principles of international law, to have shot those men on the spot. But that course was not taken; the men were surrendered to their own Government, and they were tried and convicted, but they were now all free. Among the very first who signed the appeal that Dr. Jameson and his officers should be treated as first-class misdemeanants were Irishmen. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ad been given as to the answer sent, although the Colonial Secretary was 128 questioned about the matter at the time. Finally, they asked for the favourable consideration of the cases of the prisoners on the grounds of mercy and justice, on the grounds that the men were political prisoners, and on the ground that they had already suffered terribly and sufficiently for the offences they committed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "icers of the prison. All agree that the convict exhibits no symptoms of mental unsoundness. Yet in the face of these answers was the fact that in August last the present Home Secretary felt obliged, on the basis of a medical report that Dr. Gallagher was either mad or verging towards madness, to order the release of the prisoner, and after his release it was necessary to confine him to an asylum. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ad been followed by any material consequences, they were such as should gratify the Government. The Irish people applauded the action of the Home Secretary, and he urged the right hon. Gentleman to continue his policy, and to consider the cases of the other men from a humane point of view, and not to be deterred from the exercise of that clemency humanity demanded by any considerations of policy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "decessors in office. It was hoped that this act of clemency would be followed by the release of the remaining prisoners, and the House would be spared these repeated debates. Of course it was felt that the discovery of the alleged plot intervened to tie the hands of the Home Secretary, but now, when the prosecution had broken down, the opportunity offered for the release of the remaining victims. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "h, he only 134 desired that the voices of English Members should not be wanting in this appeal, and they were not wanting when the Liberal Party were in power. MR. T. M. HEALY considered that Irish Members would fail in their duty if they did not express to the Home Secretary gratitude and satisfaction for the courage and humanity the right hon. Gentleman had shown in releasing the men last year. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "disappeared for days, hiding in bogs and ditches, and being now sent to America was an inmate of a lunatic asylum. And yet for years appeals were met with the denial that there was anything the matter with this man. He cared not whose fault it was, it was an appalling scandal and discredit to think that these denials came from the Minister who was kept in office by the votes of the Irish Members. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "to deny that, but it was to be regretted that he had done so. § MR. SPEAKER reminded the hon. Member that he should not discuss matters that might arise upon the Amendment given notice of by the hon. Member for Salford. MR. T. M. HEALY only wished to deny the imputation that it was due to any political compact, it was simply due to the courage, moderation, and humanity of the Home Secretary. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eeing that every one of these convictions occurred as long ago as 1883, in circumstances entirely different from the present, and that all the principal offenders had been released, surely the time had arrived when the Home Secretary might very fairly take these men's cases into favourable consideration, relying on the general sense of justice of that House and disregarding the attacks of cranks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "Irish cheers", "preceding_text": "f policy, of course, is a different matter, on which I have no right to speak. I am prepared to admit, as I 143 have admitted on former occasions, that those hon. Members from Ireland who have introduced this subject have presented it in a spirit and manner to which no exception can be taken. I admit that they represent the strong; opinion which a very great majority of the people of Ireland hold—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " which induced crimes of this sort, you must go beyond those motives, and, although you are willing to say that political motives and the notion that they might reform the Constitution of their country may have been to some extent the instigation of these crimes, yet these men were found guilty before a fair tribunal, and properly found guilty, of crimes which are abhorred by the civilised world. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nt of our prisoners, or the question as to how far anybody in my position is justified in advising the exercise of the Royal prerogative of mercy. It is not for me to say more except that I appreciate what has been said of my action recently, and I only want to show that the idea is erroneous that there has been the slightest divergence from the uniform practice of the Home Office in this matter. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " ought to drop the vengeance side of the matter. I do not believe there is anybody in this House or in this country who desires that the punishment of these men should be charged with the attribute of vengeance. But, at the same time, I do feel that these prisoners, who have been found guilty of crime, whether their motives were political or otherwise, ought to be punished in the severest manner. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "h the evidence which was before the Public Prosecutor, and with the guidance of the same Judge and with an English jury, the prisoner was acquitted, surely it is a fair instance of the continuity of English law and justice; and the inference is that 13 or 14years ago, when these unfortunate men were convicted, the had at least as fair a trial and treatment as the man who has been acquitted to-day."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d me, and on my authority as a Minister of the Crown, that the action of the police, whether they have succeeded or not in obtaining a conviction, has been fair throughout towards those concerned. I assert, moreover, that it is my belief that by their speedy action, and by information which they possessed, they prevented—and pretion is better than punishment—a very great disaster in this country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " of other medical men than those whom he specially employs, is to ask me to go outside my responsibility as Secretary of Slate. I repeat that I have simply adopted the uniform practice of the Home Office, that where imprisonment is likely to prove dangerous to health, sanity, or life, a certificate is given to me to that effect, and I think the facts show I have not erred on the side of severity. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " do not know that I can 148 properly add anything more. In conclusion I regret extremely that I am unable to give any promise with reference to advising Her Majesty to exercise clemency towards these prisoners. When the proper time comes I shall not be unwilling to consider their case in accordance with the practice of the Home Office, which draws no distinction between Irish and other prisoners. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/treason-felony-prisoners", "section": "treason-felony-prisoners", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " who have been in English prisons, whether from their heart of hearts, whatever they might think of the prison rules, they can say that Irish prisoners are treated differently. [An IRISH MEMBER: \"You are mistaken there.\"] At any rate, I say they are not, and I do not think it can be contradicted. I regret, Sir, I am unable to concede anything in the nature of an amnesty for these Irish prisoners. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lture in Ireland—it might be that they would be in a position to support the plan of the Government when it was revealed to them—but he confidently declared that to offer Ireland, which was already overridden with Government Boards, another Board was like offering people who were clamouring for bread a stone. He believed that the Speech would cause the bitterest disappointment throughout Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " doubt, be a more favourable and suitable one for the discussion of the subject than the Debate on the Address, for one reason, if for no other, and that was that it had been, and would be, the desire of himself and his colleagues to keep the question apart from party politics, to keep it as a platform upon which all sections of the Irish representation could agree and fight shoulder to shoulder. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "had treated their tenants unreasonably in the past, and who had been the cause of the trouble, was required to make the clause operative; whereas other Irish landlords who had no evicted tenants were ready and anxious to do all they could to bring about peace. Hence the problem still remained unsolved, and the Irish people deeply regretted it, for they had great sympathy with the evicted tenants. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "f 72 millions. That was down to 1888, the figures not being made up to a later date, but there was not the slightest doubt, and everybody must admit, that the fall since 1888 had been very considerable, and he did not think he put it too high at an additional five millions, which would make a total fall in the agricultural output of Ireland of 23 millions on a gross original total of 72 millions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " How was that loss distributed? Beyond all controversy it mainly fell upon the farmers. A little over two millions fell upon the 166 landlord class, none of it, or not much of it, on the labouring classes, though some may have suffered from loss of employment. Wages, except in some very poor districts, had not fallen in Ireland. Consequently the main portion of the loss had fallen on the farmers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "hat Bill, and had been found fault with for so doing. But Irishmen were accustomed to use strong language, and he did not know that he was a greater sinner in that respect than a great number of his countrymen. The hon. Member for South Belfast (Mr. Johnston) seemed, by his gesture, to question this as a characteristic of Irishmen, but even he \"in his green and salad days\" was not exempt from it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/20", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/20/agriculture-in-ireland", "section": "agriculture-in-ireland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ion. Whereas the main point brought before the House last year, and previously before the Committee upstairs, was that there existed immediate and urgent necessity for some relief in regard to revision of rents, the Act had given no immediate relief, except to a very small section of Irish tenants, the great body of tenants being in precisely the same condition as they were before the Act passed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/flogging-prisoners", "section": "flogging-prisoners", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Oh\"", "preceding_text": "conferred upon them by the Prison Acts; and they in the exercise of their discretion, and having regard especially to the fact that in addition to his escape he was also charged with repeated offences against prison discipline, and his character was bad, decided to order him 18 lashes. The allegations as to the screams of the prisoner are unfounded; he uttered no sound and suffered no ill-effects—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/flogging-prisoners", "section": "flogging-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s committed, and inflicted this punishment. § MR. JOHN MORLEY (Montrose Burghs) Under what law are the Visiting Justices invested with this power? § SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY Under the last Prisons Act; I forget the exact date of it. 282 § SIR WILFRID LAWSON (Cumberland, Cockermouth) May I ask whether any punishment has been inflicted on the officials who allowed this man to escape? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/flogging-prisoners", "section": "flogging-prisoners", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "to inflict this punishment in any other case than one of violence? § SIR JOSEPH LEESE (Lancashire, Accrington) asked whether any of those previous offences which were taken into account were cases of violence? § MR. HUDSON KEARLEY (Devonport) How long previously had those offences been committed? § SIR MATTHEW WHITE RIDLEY I am afraid I am hardly able to answer all these questions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/flogging-prisoners", "section": "flogging-prisoners", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tee had legal power to do what they did, and, as I have said, they did it in consideration of the prisoner being of bad character, and having committed other offences against discipline, which they punished at the same time as they punished the escape. I have also said that in the case of escape without violence the punishment of flogging would not be usual, and in my opinion would not be proper. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/india-faimine-and-plague", "section": "india-faimine-and-plague", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he Government of Bombay to deal with the bubonic plague now prevalent in that Presidency; and whether he has approved of the measures which have been adopted? § THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR INDIA (Lord GEORGE HAMILTON,) Middlesex, Ealing The extreme gravity of the subject to which my hon. Friend's 285 Question refers will justify me in making a longer reply than is usual to ordinary Questions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/education-bill-poor-school-board", "section": "education-bill-poor-school-board", "cue_text": "Ministerial laughter and cheers .", "preceding_text": " discussion? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I don't think I can answer a question of order. § SIR C. DILKE May I ask you, Mr. Speaker, whether on a Bill dealing with voluntary schools it would be in order to raise any case except that of voluntary schools? § MR. SPEAKER I should prefer not to answer a hypothetical question of that kind until I see what is really before the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers .", "preceding_text": "come to it more freely. It regretted that they did not think the University of Moore and Sheil and the immense majority of Catholic laymen who had played the greatest part in recent Irish history good enough for them. But it recognised clearly that the time had come, for some modification in the University system in Ireland, and it only wished well to the Government in the action they might take. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers .", "preceding_text": "ovided for at Maynooth. That college was originally set up by the Protestant Parliament of Ireland, it was enlarged by the Imperial Parliament, it received for many years a large grant from Imperial funds, and when that grant was abolished it was compensated for by a large capital sum which was not drawn, as it should have been, from Imperial sources, but from the distinctively Irish Church fund. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers .", "preceding_text": "is opinion, there could be no greater misfortune for Ireland than that members of the Protestant and Catholic religions in their early days should be entirely separated; that young men, at a time when their hearts were warm, when their enthusiasms were at their height, and when, they were forming friendships which might mould their future lives, were kept apart and knew nothing of 317 each other. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "l opinion. But the teaching of a University did not come merely from its professors. An immense proportion came also from the stimulus of the students, and he believed the more they narrowed the area from which that competition was derived the more feeble that stimulus would become. He had an in curable prejudice against the secular education of laymen being altogether intrusted to ecclesiastics. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "aymen being altogether intrusted to ecclesiastics. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He believed if they educated young laymen more or less in the principles of a monastery, the result would be they would turn out one class of mind—credulous, emasculated, stunted and prejudiced—and another of a stronger class of mind—acidulated and exasperated, inclined to go all lengths in opposition to what they had been taught. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Laughter and \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rsity would be even stronger that at present. Very strong coercion of this kind goes on already in Ireland. They saw, for example, a Catholic Bishop absolutely declaring he would refuse to administer the Sacrament to any Catholic who sent his children to the National Model schools, and this same Bishop shortly after saying that these schools were an imposture, as the Catholics did not go to them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "chools, and this same Bishop shortly after saying that these schools were an imposture, as the Catholics did not go to them. [ Laughter and \"Hear, hear!\"] They had seen another Catholic Bishop exercising a kind of censorship over the Press, and threatening with spiritual penalties anybody who dared to read a newspaper representing, he believed, the polities of the hon. Member who had last spoken. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " was that there should be the most stringent ecclesiastical prohibition against any Catholic going into any other University either in Ireland or in England. He was happy to say that lately in England there had been some relaxation of that spirit, and he thought it a hopeful sign that in Oxford, at all events, Catholics were allowed to go to the University and mingle with the Protestant students. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "y that lately in England there had been some relaxation of that spirit, and he thought it a hopeful sign that in Oxford, at all events, Catholics were allowed to go to the University and mingle with the Protestant students. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He was afraid hon. Members would say that he had been speaking to two sides of this question, but he had been trying to put the matter as candidly as he could. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "cs were allowed to go to the University and mingle with the Protestant students. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He was afraid hon. Members would say that he had been speaking to two sides of this question, but he had been trying to put the matter as candidly as he could. [ Cheers .] He hoped the Government, at all events, in setting up this University would first make certain that their offer would be accepted. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er by the Catholic Bishops. In 1879 the Conservative Party took up the question with somewhat more success. They established the Royal University in hopes of satisfying the Catholic demand, but as far as he could see there was scarcely any difference either since the opening of Trinity College to Catholics, or since the establishment of the Royal University in the course pursued by the Catholics. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "not merely on the ground of competence, but also to a great extent on the ground of creed. This was 319 inevitable, and therefore he did not wish to object to it, but he trusted that, having been chosen, something would be done to give them security of position, and not leave them, like the unfortunate National schoolmaster, liable to be dismissed at the instance of some ecclesiastical authority. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "change in the University system of Ireland, and that as long as they in Trinity College were left unmolested to do their own work, were allowed to keep their own unsectarian basis, and were not obliged to refuse anybody on account of religion, they would certainly not play the part of the dog in the manger or be hostile to anything that might be set up for the benefit of the Catholics of Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e unwittingly already, I may say, taken up a good deal of the time of the House this evening and last night in my views on this question, for all certain speeches I have made in this House and out of it appear to have been divided up among Gentlemen opposite, and column after column has been poured out upon a patient House, and after so full an exposition of views which I once held and still hold—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "thod by which a State subvention of Imperial money does go towards the endowment of professors in a distinctively Roman Catholic University. No such privilege exists in France, and it will hardly be maintained that that which is tolerated by the great majority of French Roman Catholics is in itself deserving of all the vehement invective levelled against the Irish system by hon. Gentlemen to-day. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Laughter and \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tainly did not do so. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I apologise to the hon Gentleman. I had not his speech in my mind when this observation dropped from me. The hon. Member for Donegal indulged last night in a vehemence of rhetoric to which the speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down was a stranger, and it was his eloquence I was thinking of, and not that of the hon. Gentleman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "leman who has just sat down was a stranger, and it was his eloquence I was thinking of, and not that of the hon. Gentleman. [ Laughter and \"Hear, hear!\"] While I desire entirely to dissent from the attack made upon the existing system in Ireland by hon. Gentlemen opposite, I must also frankly dissociate myself from the views put forward last night by my hon. Friend one of the Members for Belfast. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "can regard that system with perfect equanimity as in no sense inimical to the Protestant faith, and yet regard with horror the establishment of University education—education that is, which is directed to minds of students at a 321 time when they are far more capable of reacting against the teaching which they listen to than they are at the tender age when they are subjected to primary education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "at the State abstains, as from an unclean thing, from spending a single sixpence of public money on any system of education in which Roman Catholic teaching is at all concerned, that is so absolutely abandoned that I confess I should think that my hon. Frend and those who think with him would do well to reconsider the uncompromising position which they have consistently taken up upon this matter. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "olic population in Ireland—if I could see that, then I should regard 322 the question as having been solved most profitably for the furtherance of all educational requirements in Ireland. But I am afraid that everybody that knows Ireland, whatever his opinions may be and whatever party of politics he belongs to, is reluctantly compelled to admit that any such prospect is incapable of realisation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t is incapable of realisation. [\"Hear, hear!\"] We have to accept the fact that, unless we are able to contrive some system of higher education in winch the Roman Catholic population will consent to take part, it is vain for us to hope that higher education will be practically brought within the reach of a large number of the members of that community which certainly ought to take advantage of it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "within the reach of a large number of the members of that community which certainly ought to take advantage of it. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But in stating this view I hope I shall not be considered as in any way minimising the statements I have made before if I say we ought to be convinced, before any new plan is carried into effect, that it really will give what we want—a good system of higher education. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nd that the general standard of education would thereby be kept up. In that argument I still see very great force, but I admit that since I made the speeches to which such lavish reference has been made in the course of this Debate I am more impressed than I used to be with the disadvantages from the purely educational point of view of dividing the examining authority from the teaching authority. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "those who are in terested in higher education will agree with me when I say that the general experience of mankind is that, if you want to get the best results, you cannot and ought not to depend on examinations alone, but that you ought to associate the teaching body with the 323 examining body, and that the same influences which prevail with the ex amining should prevail also with the teaching. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "\"] That is an argument against a Roman Catholic College and in favour of a Roman Catholic University, but it leaves us open to the danger which I hope to avoid by having a college rather than a University—that the University, if or when it were set up, would not maintain at a high level the secular education which is the sole object we have in view in promoting higher education in Ireland at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " is likely to be a success or not. It appears, so far as I can discover with such information as is at our disposal, that at present, at all events, judging from the statistics of the courses which the students attend, it is principally for the purpose of educating theological students. That, of course, is not the object we have in view in setting up a new higher educational machinery in Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ty, or sections of the Republican Party I should say, from the Roman Catholic hierarchy. But if we go to Germany, I am informed that in Bavaria and Austria, countries in which the general prevalence of Roman Catholicism will not be disputed by anybody, the Universities, which are admirable institutions, are kept entirely free, 324 so far as I know, from anything in the nature of clerical control. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tions, are kept entirely free, 324 so far as I know, from anything in the nature of clerical control. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The Bavarian Universities are in many respects necessarily different from anything we have, or perhaps should desire to have or could have, in this country. But the German Universities have done a work the importance of which to Germany and the world it is impossible to exaggerate—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "in this country. But the German Universities have done a work the importance of which to Germany and the world it is impossible to exaggerate—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and I think that, even while it would be absurd to attempt slavishly to imitate their constitutions, there may be lessons to be learned from those constitutions which all persons interested in higher education would do well to take to heart. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "our existing means of information is to show that here is the real crux in the problem. This House cannot be asked, and should not be asked, to set up an institution which when set up will not fulfil the object we have in view. If the machinery is such that we cannot as reasonable men hope to get from it the very best fruits of the higher learning, then we had better not touch the subject at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Irish cheers", "preceding_text": "e common-sense of which it is 325 probable everybody will recognise. He said— Don't let us propose a scheme until we are tolerably sure that it will he acceptable. I have indicated the difficulties which must attend the framers of any scheme on the subject. I hope everybody, on whatever side of the House he sits, will recognise that I have approached this question in a spirit which is not hostile—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "loud laughter", "preceding_text": "he House he sits, will recognise that I have approached this question in a spirit which is not hostile—[ Irish cheers ]—even to the most specially Irish view of the subject. I was amused on looking at a speech delivered many years ago by the present Leader of the Opposition on Mr. Gladstone's University Bill of 1873. The then Mr. Vernon Harcourt observed that— For himself, not being a Home Ruler \""}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Renewed laughter .", "preceding_text": "stile—[ Irish cheers ]—even to the most specially Irish view of the subject. I was amused on looking at a speech delivered many years ago by the present Leader of the Opposition on Mr. Gladstone's University Bill of 1873. The then Mr. Vernon Harcourt observed that— For himself, not being a Home Ruler \"[ loud laughter ], \"he had never adopted the idea of governing Ireland according to Irish ideas. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "— For himself, not being a Home Ruler \"[ loud laughter ], \"he had never adopted the idea of governing Ireland according to Irish ideas. [ Renewed laughter .] I am not a Home Ruler, but I do not draw from that the doctrine and the corollary drawn from it by the then Mr. Vernon Harcourt. Though not a Home Ruler, I am sincerely anxious that in this matter we should put all sectarian prejudices aside—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " most opposed to me in general politics, will agree with me, at all events in this, that we should be doing Ireland no service whatever if in our attempt to give them a form of higher education acceptable to the majority of the people we were to set up either a college or a University which would not compare on equal terms with other educational institutions on both sides of St. George's Channel. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "House, and I understood that they would assent—of course, through an Irish Parliament—to the proposal that no Divinity chair in a Catholic university or college should be endowed out of public funds. Of course, those high ecclesiastical personages may have since seen occasion to change their views on the subject. [\"No, no,\" from the, Nationalist Members .] That I regard as an important admission. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "man opposite rather minimised the denominational character of Trinity College, but he cannot deny that it is one of the most important institutions in Ireland for the training of ministers for the Protestant Episcopal Church, and I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not exclude from the Catholic University the theological faculty, provided that the chairs are not endowed out of public funds. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the Catholic University the theological faculty, provided that the chairs are not endowed out of public funds. [\"Hear, hear!\"] However, I need not now go into further details. Speaking for myself, I have heard the statement of the right hon. Gentleman with great agreement, and I hope that we shall not go much longer without something being carried out in the direction on which we are both agreed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " university education; and that being so, surely he ought to set about the task of proposing a scheme which Parliament could accept. He thought they ought to receive some sort of promise from the Treasury Bench that steps would be taken by the Government to frame such a measure, acting in concert with the Catholic Bishops of Ireland, as would satisfy the minds and consciences of the Irish people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " and consciences of the Irish people. [ Cheers .] § MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.) said that after the speech of the First Lord of the Treasury, the question, must become much more largely one of terms, and he thought the hon. Member for Kildare would be well advised not to press the Amendment to a division, because the object he had in view had been practically met by the right hon. Gentleman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ember that the first 332 thing the present Viceroy did when he arrived in Ireland was to pledge the Government to the establishment of a Catholic university for Ireland. Twice after that the Viceroy was invited to Belfast, and he was received with distinction by the citizens, showing that there was not the strong feeling against the establishment of such a university as the hon. Member suggested. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ects the Government should have in view in the formation of a Catholic university he entirely concurred. Neither the Catholic Bishops nor the Catholic people generally desired to set up anything in the nature of a mere ecclesiastical seminary. What they desired was a university of liberal culture, of liberal training. They had no desire to impose anything like a narrow institution on the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ey could resort in their youth by reason of the Protestant atmosphere that prevailed in the existing colleges. He would ask the hon. Member for South Belfast whether he would like to send his children to a Jesuits' school—to place them under the care of the Jesuits? Then, why should he be forced to send his children to a Protestant school, and to place them under the care of Protestant clergymen? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the care of Protestant clergymen? [\"Hear, hear!\"] The existing condition of things in Ireland with regard to this question of Catholic university education was not only very unjust, but was absurd in a country like Ireland. Therefore what the Catholic Bishops and people desired and demanded was the establishment of an institution of liberal learning, in which a Catholic atmosphere should prevail. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and laughter .", "preceding_text": "te deed, providing certain persons to make it. § MR. T. M. HEALY did not see that that touched the question, and even if it did it strengthened his case. Even under a private deed it was not obligatory to appoint a parson; that was his point. 334 § MR. CARSON said that personally he supported the other candidate. § MR. T. M. HEALY said that that still further strengthened his case. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "section": "catholics-of-ireland-university-education", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t was not obligatory to appoint a parson; that was his point. 334 § MR. CARSON said that personally he supported the other candidate. § MR. T. M. HEALY said that that still further strengthened his case. [\"Hear, hear!\" and laughter .] But he had only used the illustration for the purpose of showing that Trinity College was immersed in what he called doctrinal and militant Protestantism. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/crofters-in-scotland", "section": "crofters-in-scotland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s produced that would have done credit to much finer soil. He believed it might be urged that if the policy they recommended were adopted it would interfere with the sport of the landlord. He himself was a sportsman, as was the Lord Advocate also, he thought, and he should be very sorry to do anything which would interfere with sport; but he held that sport must always give way to public opinion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/crofters-in-scotland", "section": "crofters-in-scotland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " compel proprietors to give up land for the purpose of its occupation by crofters, but he did not think it was necessary now to argue that question. The historical position had been stated too often, and they had the authority of the present Prime Minister for saying that, so far as the tenure in the Highlands was concerned, it was an exceptional case, and they were entitled to special treatment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/crofters-in-scotland", "section": "crofters-in-scotland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ll crofts, for the Manitoba Government recognised the value of an industrious body of men cultivating the soil of the country. Public money was freely voted to transplant these Highlanders to the Canadian North West, and he could not help, while speaking to the crofters out there, thinking that that money would have been better expended in providing them with larger holdings in their own country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/crofters-in-scotland", "section": "crofters-in-scotland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ry with 10,000 men—the flower of the British Army. Such a contingent of fighting men might be looked for now in vain in Skye or the islands of the Western Hebrides. And why? Because whole masses of the inhabitants had been evicted, their homesteads razed to the ground, and the tracts they occupied given up to sheep, deer, and grouse. More land for the crofters would not materially diminish sport. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/crofters-in-scotland", "section": "crofters-in-scotland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "cilities were given to the people to earn a living. The number of acres required to do this was far larger than could be dealt with by the small sum set aside last year, and he should be glad to hear whether the Bill to be introduced was to be one merely of an experimental kind, or whether it was intended by means of it to carry out any of the recommendations made in the Report of the Commission. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Irish cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " meant. It might mean protection against overt and crude attacks such as were made in ruder days, and which were no longer possible, and which were therefore no longer a danger. Or it might mean protection against more insidious attacks by which justice was made subservient to the exigencies of political strategy. A very profligate instance of this kind was the reopening of the Maamtrasna trials. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rage in critical cases would presently be remedied by other hands. This was the particular danger to which his remarks would be chiefly directed. When his right hon. Friend in August last released from prison four persons all convicted of desperate crimes at one moment, and released them at a time when most Members of the House had left London and it was impossible to raise any issue in the House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\" and laughter", "preceding_text": "imes at one moment, and released them at a time when most Members of the House had left London and it was impossible to raise any issue in the House—[\"hear, hear!\"]—there was a certain troubled feeling went over the country, and was reflected in all portions of the Press. He had means of testing this feeling in another way, for he ventured to write two or three letters to The Times on the subject—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ne virtually amounted to some imputation on the integrity and honour of his right hon. Friend. He could not possibly understand how such an opinion— § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY What I said at Manchester so far as I remember was that if, after the statement I then made in public, on my honour as a gentleman, anybody repeated that accusation, he would be disgraced by it, and I should not. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ion in the matter, as the hon. Gentleman suggested, would incur, as I thought, very serious responsibility. § SIR H. HOWORTH said he had not anywhere made any imputation of any kind—he could not make an imputation—in the House or out of it affecting the honour and character of his right hon. Friend. That character, both in the 363 House and outside the House, was absolutely beyond suspicion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Mr. DAVITT: \"What about Dr. Jameson and his friends?\" \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ercy became attached to a political officer he was eventually at the mercy of a large number of outside influences, which it required a man of strong character always to resist. It was extremely indecent that in a number 364 of cases discussed in the Press the political or private friends of prisoners should bring pressure to bear upon the Home Secretary to exercise the powers which he possessed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Nationalist cries of \"Oh,\" and laughter .", "preceding_text": "t mass of its Members had left London. It was on August 15 that the Home Secretary announced in the House that he had resolved to release these men, and it-seemed to a great number of people in this country that their release was in curious proximity in point of time to the complacency of certain politicians, who were found to be extremely complacent when the Irish Land Bill was under discussion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Oh, oh.\"", "preceding_text": "exceptional intervention of the Home Office only arose in cases of imminent death. [\"No, no.\"] He made that statement on the high authority of Sir Edmund Du Cane. MR. T. M. HEALY What about the bank forgers? § SIR H. HOWORTH said that hitherto it had not been the custom to release a prisoner because he happened to have gone out of his mind. The proper place for such a prisoner was Broadmoor. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "because he happened to have gone out of his mind. The proper place for such a prisoner was Broadmoor. [\"Oh, oh.\"] The country had provided a special place and a special method of treatment for prisoners who lost their reason. Why, then, should two prisoners who were lunatics be turned out into society when the proper place for them was Broadmoor? But was it certain that these men were mad at all? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Nationalist cheers", "preceding_text": "ed in a sense which at present he could not gauge, because the report had not been published. But if it was on the testimony of Dr. Maudsley that these men were released from prison, they had the evidence of these last three days in the House of Commons, when one of these four men—Daly—was actually sitting underneath the gallery after having had triumphal processions in different parts of Ireland—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear,\" from the Nationalists .", "preceding_text": "that these men were released from prison, they had the evidence of these last three days in the House of Commons, when one of these four men—Daly—was actually sitting underneath the gallery after having had triumphal processions in different parts of Ireland—[ Nationalist cheers ]—and being the hero of one banquet after another, and making speeches which in the Irish papers occupied three columns "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " Commissioners who had examined into their condition in the course of the last nine or ten years? Who was to say that these men who shammed madness so well were not shamming at this moment, and that they had been released on the testimony and by the advice of a doctor whose judgment had been proved to be utterly worthless by the presence in this House of the individual on whom he passed judgment? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "resence in this House of the individual on whom he passed judgment? [ Cheers .] He complained very much of the reticence of his right hon. Friend in this matter. The American papers of the last seven months had been full of the vilest and most abominable imputations against the predecessor in office of his right hon. Friend, and against the gaolers and doctors and other officers. \"Bloody Asquith\"—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "] He complained very much of the reticence of his right hon. Friend in this matter. The American papers of the last seven months had been full of the vilest and most abominable imputations against the predecessor in office of his right hon. Friend, and against the gaolers and doctors and other officers. \"Bloody Asquith\"—[ laughter ]—was a heading that occurred continuously. \"The Ruffian Asquith \"—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Interruption from Nationalist members .", "preceding_text": " his right hon. Friend in this matter. The American papers of the last seven months had been full of the vilest and most abominable imputations against the predecessor in office of his right hon. Friend, and against the gaolers and doctors and other officers. \"Bloody Asquith\"—[ laughter ]—was a heading that occurred continuously. \"The Ruffian Asquith \"—[ laughter ]—was another prominent headline, "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "at present, and for whom they all had the highest respect, he could not help feeling that these phrases were rather a shame to the Ministerial side which they could by no means be proud of. He and his Friends felt that the right hon. Gentleman opposite when in office was cheered very loudly from the Unionist benches for his courageous conduct—doubly courageous considering the pressure behind him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "present Home Secretary; and he and his Friends did not like to think that this reversal of the decision of the right hon. Gentleman opposite might have the very painful result that no future Liberal Home Secretary would dare to face the responsibility and difficulty of resisting pressure from behind, because he would be told that others would do what he had been courageous enough to refuse to do, "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": " that no future Liberal Home Secretary would dare to face the responsibility and difficulty of resisting pressure from behind, because he would be told that others would do what he had been courageous enough to refuse to do, [ Cheers .] Not only ought the predecessors of the present Home Secretary to be considered, but the officials of the gaols also. They had been denounced in shameless language—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "heers ]—and had been accused of the basest cruelty. If those charges were true, the prison officials ought to be removed from their offices. If they were not, then the natural guardian and protector of the officials—the Home Secretary—ought immediately to give an answer which would be complete—an answer based on the documents in his hands proving the whole of the charges to be utterly slanderous. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ght hon. Friend the Home Secretary, that phrase might be erased. Sir, the whole speech of the hon. Gentleman, from the first to the last word he tittered, was not merely an imputation upon the judgment of my right hon. Friend—which he was perfectly at liberty to call in question—but it was an imputation upon the honour, not only of my right hon. Friend, but of every man that sits upon this Bench. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": " to-night—to deal in detail with the statements of the hon. Gentleman; but I cannot allow what the hon. Gentleman has said to pass for one moment without stating on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government that I regard the imputation he has deliberately thrown upon us—by insinuation, perhaps, more than by direct statement, but insinuations that could not be mistaken in any part of the House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "renewed cheers", "preceding_text": "leman has said to pass for one moment without stating on my own behalf and on behalf of the Government that I regard the imputation he has deliberately thrown upon us—by insinuation, perhaps, more than by direct statement, but insinuations that could not be mistaken in any part of the House—[ cheers ]—that I regard those imputations as utterly unworthy of a Member of the Party to which he belongs—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Irish cheers .", "preceding_text": "nsinuation, perhaps, more than by direct statement, but insinuations that could not be mistaken in any part of the House—[ cheers ]—that I regard those imputations as utterly unworthy of a Member of the Party to which he belongs—[ renewed cheers ]—and that either we who sit upon this Bench are unfit to lead the Party any longer, or else he himself would have found some difficulty in following us. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er, or else he himself would have found some difficulty in following us. [ Irish cheers .] The hon. Gentleman, from beginning to end of his speech, has either stated or insinuated in unmistakable terms that the action of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary in releasing the four dynamiters in August last was dictated, not by his duty as 371 Home Secretary, but by his interests as a politician. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "cries of \"Star Chamber\"", "preceding_text": "ast was dictated, not by his duty as 371 Home Secretary, but by his interests as a politician. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He has stated, or he has insinuated, that my right hon. Friend has started a new principle of policy in the Home Office. He has stated, or he has insinuated, that my right hon. Friend has constituted himself, for the first time in the history of the Home Office, a kind of court of appeal—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er\"; that was the phrase of the hon. Gentleman—that my right hon. Friend has constituted himself the chief of a secret court, or Star Chamber, whose deliberations are carried on far from the public gaze, and whose verdicts are given, not in consonance with justice or with the criminal law of the country, but in order to serve the particular Party ends of a particular Party at a particular moment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "I am ready to carry it out. I know not which of these hypotheses is accepted by the hon. Gentleman. But rue of the two must be accepted by him. Either he thinks my right hon. Friend is utterly unworthy of the place he occupies, or he thinks my right hon. Friend is one of the band of conspirators who are perfectly ready to sell the honour of their country for a temporary 372 Parliamentary triumph. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ntary triumph. [ Cheers .] Sir, let me tell the hon. Gentleman that so long as he confines himself to an attack upon the administrative ability of my right hon. Friend, whatever else we may have thought of hint, we should not think that he was going beyond the bounds which ought to limit Parliamentary criticism, even Parliamentary criticism that comes from those who are opposed to us in polities. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "beyond the bounds which ought to limit Parliamentary criticism, even Parliamentary criticism that comes from those who are opposed to us in polities. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Put when he attacks, not the prudence or the discretion of a particular Minister, or the prudence or the discretion of the Cabinet as a whole, but their honour as politicians and as men, then, in my judgment, he oversteps the limits. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e is brief, and I do not mean to discuss the medical reports as to the health of this criminal or that criminal. Let me only conclude by saying that my right hon. Friend never consulted his colleagues upon the decision which he came to, and that the invariable tradition of the office to which he belongs is that such decisions should be taken upon the authority of the Minister, and upon his alone. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e, he started no new principles, but he followed with undeviating fidelity the traditions which have regulated the great office of which he is head, not for one Ministry, nor for two Ministries, but for generations. Sir, that statement which I make now to the House I have made in public before, and that statement was before the hon. Gentleman before he uttered the words to which we have listened. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Loud cheers .", "preceding_text": "ny other man, if another man there be who is ready to follow him in the line of argument which he has adopted to-night; but I am con- 373 vinced that, speaking as I do not merely to friends, but to opponents, there is not a man in this House except the hon. Gentleman who is not prepared to accept with absolute credence the statement which I have now made upon my honour as a Minister of the Crown. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "d imported into the discussion a warmth which was scarcely called for by the speech to which he responded. He had listened very carefully to the remarks of his hon. Friend behind him, and if he were to criticise them he should say that with a reiteration, which was, he thought, uncalled for, he had not in any shape or form made any attack upon the Home Secretary except in respect of his judgment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jan/22", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jan/22/dynamitards-release", "section": "dynamitards-release", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "rawn between political and other prisoners; and that he 374 was willing to admit that these men might be properly regarded in the light of being political prisoners because they Were tried under the Treason Felony Act . If that was not putting them in the category of political prisoners he should like to know what was. Doubtless, from what his right hon. Friend had said that report was inaccurate—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "umstances be incurred within the current year. If the whole of the money which the House was asked to vote were spent, there would be a very small balance which the Chancellor of the Exchequer would be able to provide out of the current Exchequer balance. Therefore it was not necessary to ask for power to borrow further money. He hoped this explanation had made the position clear to hon. Members. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "y. He hoped this explanation had made the position clear to hon. Members. [ Cheers. ] The Admiralty were satisfied that the proposals made under the Bill were not more than adequate to meet the needs of the service for which they were responsible; and they believed that they were meeting the general sense of the House and the country in asking the House to make adequate provision for those needs. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ndee) offered his sincere congratulations to the hon. Gentleman for the perfectly clear statement which he had made. He regretted that an hon. Friend of his (Mr. Lough) had put down a Motion on the Paper for the rejection of this Bill; and he hoped that the Motion would not be pressed to a Division. For his own part, he was sincerely pleased once again to be able to support this Naval Works Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "this Naval Works Bill. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The House had recently had an opportunity of seeing a small part of the. British Fleet, and no doubt hon. Members were impressed with the majesty of the spectacle. But if it were possible to bring together all that was 89 being done under these Naval Works Bills all over the world, the effect would be even more impressive than that of the review at Spithead. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " report with reference to the new works at Dover, but why bad not that Report been laid on the Table? He doubted whether a great harbour could be built at Dover with safety, owing to the engineering difficulties. They were joyously going to pour 3½ millions into the sea at Dover. 93 Dover in time of war was about the most unsafe place in the whole Empire for our battleships to seek refuge. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "Laugher.", "preceding_text": "whether a great harbour could be built at Dover with safety, owing to the engineering difficulties. They were joyously going to pour 3½ millions into the sea at Dover. 93 Dover in time of war was about the most unsafe place in the whole Empire for our battleships to seek refuge. [ Cheers. ] The best thing they could do was to run through the Straits of Dover as fast as they possibly could. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "Renewed laugher.", "preceding_text": "They were joyously going to pour 3½ millions into the sea at Dover. 93 Dover in time of war was about the most unsafe place in the whole Empire for our battleships to seek refuge. [ Cheers. ] The best thing they could do was to run through the Straits of Dover as fast as they possibly could. [ Laugher. ] They would be far safer down at Devonport or some other spot more Secluded than Dover. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " done as economically as possible. On the whole, he could not help thinking that the time chosen, for these proposals was inopportune. We had recently been celebrating a long reign of peace, but no sooner was that celebration over titan the House of Commons was asked to vote this great expenditure, when, as far as he could see, the state of the world could not justify the policy of the Admiralty. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "a position to endorse his criticism, because in recent times I am the person responsible for having proposed the construction of a harbour at Dover, for in the year 1885 I produced a Bill for that purpose. I do not agree with him that Dover is a bad staion. The Fleet always used to make one of the principal stations in the Downs. If my hon. Friend refers to the well-known work \"Black-Ey'd Susan\" —"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "and the Channel. And, therefore, I have always thought that a great naval station at Dover, not of construction, but of observation, was a natural resort of the British Fleet. I agree with what has been said as to the altered character of the security of the Downs owing to the danger front torpedo boats, and, therefore, a harbour at Dover is a requirement, for a modern fleet, of great importance. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\" Hear, hear !\"", "preceding_text": "acter of the security of the Downs owing to the danger front torpedo boats, and, therefore, a harbour at Dover is a requirement, for a modern fleet, of great importance. [\"Hear, hear!\"] will only observe that if our policy in this matter had been carried out by our successors in office in 1887, the harbour which I proposed this time 10 years ago might have been already completed and in operation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " These are matters, however, which, no doubt, will be more fitly discussed in Committee; and. I only rose in order that we might have seine accurate information on the financial aspect of this Bill, and some better security that when the annual Bill is laid before us we should be given 99 authentic information as to what has been spent and what is likely to be spent in the year that is before us. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " of view the, Bill was unnecessary, because the service could have been performed without coming to the House for fresh money; but from the point of view of strict convenience it was highly necessary, because there were two or three new departures in the Bill—slight changes and modifications of existing schemes upon which the House would have an opportunity of pronouncing an opinion in Committee. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "he Government, however, extracted from Ireland every year the price of two first-class battleships, but never dreamed of giving Ireland any thanks. No compliment was paid to Ireland for her contributions to the Imperial armament, but the Cape Colony was to be effusively thanked. The policy of Parliament was to sanction any amount of naval expenditure at Hong-Kong, Gibraltar, Madagascar, Jerusalem—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "A laugh.", "preceding_text": "aid that they must follow authority in naval matters. Yes; he agreed when it was strictly a naval matter; but here Was raised a question which was not strictly naval. That was why he objected to a considerable portion of the expenditure, which represented an entirely new departure. In his view, more than half the expenditure was wholly bad. One half was wholly good, the other half was wholly bad. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "o the necessity aural advantage of the harbour. The hon. Member had spoken of the Board of Admiralty as never agreeing among themselves, and that the board-room was the scene of almost daily quarrels. That was entirely contrary to the facts. The Board were absolutely agreed on the necessity and urgency of their work, and they were supported by distinguished Admirals who had been at the Admiralty. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/naval-works-bill", "section": "naval-works-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e Saltash Bridge, but it was intended only to make berths for cruisers. The hon. Member for Louth asked a question about the fever hospital at Haulbowline, and another lion. Member asked him to give it pledge that the works would be proceeded with as fast as possible. He gave that pledge, not only in regard 110 to the works at Haulbowline, but in regard to all the works which they had undertaken. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "iary damages only was comparatively unimportant, and the Bill would be greatly defective. He strongly urged on his right hon. Friend and on the water companies that this kind of Amendment was for their own interest. If the grievances of consumers were met by a really effective remedy, then assuredly when the final settlement of the water question came it would be all the better for the companies. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "existing. But he was unable to agree that the Amendment was wanted at all. He did not read the power to award damages under the 12th Section of the Railway and Canal Traffic Act as being confined to awards in respect of pecuniary loss. The power to award damages was a power based on those principles of common sense which he hoped he was not unduly sanguine in thinking underlay English common law. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "lth through the action of a water company, he could obtain compensation in respect of his doctor's fees and other expenses. The Solicitor General had shown that under the present law a person who sustained pecuniary damage could obtain redress in the form of pecuniary compensation. The Amendment, in his opinion, was mere verbiage, and would encumber the Bill with a layman's views on this subject. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ld be mulcted if they caused an individual inconvenience or annoyance. Compensation ought not to be confined to cases in which there was actual monetary loss. § *MR. ALFRED HOPKINSON (Wilts, Cricklade) doubted whether, under the existing law, anything, could be recovered front a. water company by a family who had suffered inconvenience by being deprived of water and baths for a. week or two. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "carried water companies would be held responsible for many things over which they really had no control. § LORD HUGH CECIL said that the attitude of the Solicitor General towards this Amendment reminded hint of Caliph Omar, who destroyed the library at Alexandria on the ground that if the books therein agreed with the Book of God they were useless, and if they disagreed they were pernicious. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "alf an hour in opposing it? The fact was that the Amendment would cover cases which ought to be met but which the existing law did not provide for. There was a story of Tallyrand that in an interview he had with some representatives of commerce one of them made the remark, \"That goes without saying.\" \"Well,\" said Tallyrand, \"if it goes so well without saying, it will go even better by saying it.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "section": "complaint-may-be-made-to-railway-and", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "entatives of commerce one of them made the remark, \"That goes without saying.\" \"Well,\" said Tallyrand, \"if it goes so well without saying, it will go even better by saying it.\" [ Laughter. ] The Government seemed prepared to deny the people who really suffered proper damages, which they themselves had not the courage to affirm were improper damages. It was on that issue they were going to divide. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jul/14", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jul/14/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "arr; 14 July 1897 → Commons Sitting → ORDERS OF THE DAY. BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE. HC Deb 14 July 1897 vol 51 c128 128 § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY , in moving the adjournment of the House, said: I beg to give notice that at the beginning of business to-morrow I shall, in the general interest of the House, move that the Twelve o'clock Rule be suspended for the rest of the Session. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/queens-diamond-jubilee", "section": "queens-diamond-jubilee", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e pageant? § MR. AKERS-DOUGLAS said that the question of opening the National Gallery to the Members of the House of Lords and their friends on Jubilee Day was nut one for him to decide, it rested with the trustees of the Gallery. He should certainly hesitate to ask, that the Gallery should be opened, because it would give the attendants unnecessary work on a day which ought to be a holiday. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "the refusal toy the less educated of the right to appear by counsel would be a hardship. It would be much more of a hardship to the working man who was not accustomed to this kind of discussion than it would be to a richer man—say, the employer. At the same time, the Government were as strongly persuaded as any one could be that the constant interference of the lawyer would be an absolute injury— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nt were as strongly persuaded as any one could be that the constant interference of the lawyer would be an absolute injury— [\"hear, hear!\"]—and they were anxious to do everything they could to keep him out. Special cases, however, must be provided for, and he suggested they should add to the Amendment \"except by the leave of the Court or arbitrator or in any action in the Court of Appeal.' "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "A. laugh.", "preceding_text": "etary and exclude the solicitor? § MR. S. WOODS (Essex, Walthamstow) thanked the Colonial Secretary for his suggestion. § MR. G. W. WOLFF (Belfast, E.) said that the workman might appear through the trade union secretary. What was the employer to do? Was he to attend in person? § MR. CHAMBERLAIN He would have the same choice. § MR. WOLFF He has not got a trade union secretary. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ". CHAMBERLAIN He would have the same choice. § MR. WOLFF He has not got a trade union secretary. [ A. laugh. ] § MR. CHAMBERLAIN said he did not accept the general statement that in 273 every case the workmen would appear by a. trade union official. He thought that in a great majority of cases the men would be perfectly content 10 appear before the arbitrator and make a plain statement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "endment agreed to. § SIR. CHARLES DILKE moved in Section (8), before the first word \"Any,\" to insert the words, \"The Secretary of State at the request of.\" § THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE HOME DEPARTMENT (Sir MATTHEEW WHITE RIDLEY,) Lancashire, Blackpool accepted the Amendment, though he was not quite certain what form of words would be best. That might be reserved to the Report stage. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "ovided under the 52nd Section of the Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act 1876 , subject to the declaration that it shall be competent for either party to require the Sheriff to state a case on any question of law determined by him and his decision thereon, and such case may lie submitted to either division of the Court of Session, who, if they considered that the point involved is of general importance—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ng the case in Court, but of its preparation. The views of hon. Members who wished to prevent undue expenditure on litigation could be met by framing a scale of costs as was clone in 277 the Small Debts Courts. As far as Scotland was concerned, he was quite sure that to deprive the workman of the assistance of a solicitor would be greatly against him. He was afraid he had been rather out of order—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " In reference to the matter of appearance by solicitors or with the assistance of solicitors, he (the speaker) was only sorry that he did not take up the cause of England; but he was extremely glad to find that the stronger common sense that always marked Scotchmen would not be lost sight of in the Bill, and that the Bill would be rational and reasonable in Scotland even if it was not in England. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "ughter. ] He was glad that the Lord Advocate, after consulting Her Majesty's Government, was to be permitted to make the proper alterations in this respect upon Report; and he hoped Her Majesty's Government, under the circumstances, would not put the English Members in a much worse position than the Scotch, and would also consider on Report the matter of employing solicitors in the English Court. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "rmitted to make the proper alterations in this respect upon Report; and he hoped Her Majesty's Government, under the circumstances, would not put the English Members in a much worse position than the Scotch, and would also consider on Report the matter of employing solicitors in the English Court. [ Cries of \"No, no!\"] Then he thought it was extremely hard that he was not born in Scotland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "l case stated all the facts and everything that was required for forming a decision appeared on the face of it. No fact could be added by counsel; and if they chose, the Court could settle it in two or three hours without counsel. MR. GIBSON BOWLES The right hon. Gentleman has added another cause 279 for gratification. I see now that in Scotland you may understand a case before you have heard it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Agreed, agreed!", "preceding_text": " their solicitor or counsel could appear. Thus, a miner's agent, for instance, could not appear before the Sheriff. He understood an arrangement was to be made in cases dealt with in the English County Court, whereby some non-professional person might appear on behalf of the party. He presumed if that was to be so in the case in England, a similar proviso ought to be made in the case of Scotland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/jun/04/second-schedule-arbitration", "section": "second-schedule-arbitration", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "id it was not altogether like the Small Debts Court, because in that Court there was no appeal on a case of law stated. That was one difference. Of course the matter as 280 to appearing by next friend would have to be considered on Report. This was not the time to go into it, but, obviously, if the parties were to be debarred from what really in Scotland was every man's next friend, the solicitor—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/slavery-new-hebrides", "section": "slavery-new-hebrides", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " from a newspaper—it does not appear which— § MR. S. SMITH The Melbourne Argus . § MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN The extract is part of a letter signed \"Henry Varley, San Francisco,\" who refers to an anonymous statement in The Melbourne Argus speaking of a report received from a recent visitor, also anonymous. The hon. Member will see that upon a statement of that kind—which is threefold anonymous—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/slavery-new-hebrides", "section": "slavery-new-hebrides", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he Melbourne Argus . § MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN The extract is part of a letter signed \"Henry Varley, San Francisco,\" who refers to an anonymous statement in The Melbourne Argus speaking of a report received from a recent visitor, also anonymous. The hon. Member will see that upon a statement of that kind—which is threefold anonymous—[ laughter ]—it is impossible for me to take any serious action. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " position to pronounce. § MR. HENRY LABOUCHERE (Northampton) Would the right hon. Gentleman state whether the Foreign Office did obtain a copy, or took a copy, of what was stated by the Greek Charge d'Affaires? *MR. CURZON I have already said that the Greek Chargé d'Affaires declined to leave a copy, and of course the Permanent Under Secretary did not copy it, while it was being read. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tleman made a statement to this House of the policy of Her Majesty's Government, and he said at the time that an identical statement would be made in the other House of Parliament. Now, Sir, that did not turn out to be absolutely correct, because a statement appears to have been made in another place which was not identical, but which contained additional particulars of a very important character—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lace, whether or not these categorical terms of the policy put forward by Her Majesty's Government have been accepted, and are practically now in force, in what is called the Concert of Europe. There is at least one thing in regard to this publication which I am entitled to refer to, and that is, that it was an invitation to this House, as it was to the world, to discuss the terms of this policy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " Friday, but when the Leader of the House suggested that this was too early I acquiesced at once and waived the request for Friday. But what was my surprise—and I will add my satisfaction—when I found in the journals the next morning this announcement— Mr. George N. Curzon, Under Secretary of State for Foregn Affairs, was the chief speaker at a largely-attended Smoking At Home at the United Club. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "t morning this announcement— Mr. George N. Curzon, Under Secretary of State for Foregn Affairs, was the chief speaker at a largely-attended Smoking At Home at the United Club. [ Laughter .] Although I was taken by surprise, I do not complain, because it may come to this—that \"Smoking At Homes\" may be the only places at which we shall find ourselves able to discuss the great affairs of the Empire. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "nited Club. [ Laughter .] Although I was taken by surprise, I do not complain, because it may come to this—that \"Smoking At Homes\" may be the only places at which we shall find ourselves able to discuss the great affairs of the Empire. [ Laughter .] At all events, the Under Secretary had the advantage which I think Mr. Carlyle in his Life of Frederick the Great describes as \"the Tabak Parlament.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "t I may refer to it. I will, however, give the House an idea of the speech from what I believe are called the head lines in the journal in which I read the speech. They are as follows:—\"Three Aspects of the Cretan Question\"; \"Other Influences at Work\"; \"The Present Situation\"; \"The Attitude of the Powers\"; \"The Charges against the Government\"; \"The Proposed Reforms and General Reforms in Turkey.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " journal in which I read the speech. They are as follows:—\"Three Aspects of the Cretan Question\"; \"Other Influences at Work\"; \"The Present Situation\"; \"The Attitude of the Powers\"; \"The Charges against the Government\"; \"The Proposed Reforms and General Reforms in Turkey.\" [ Laughter .] A more comprehensive view of 1453 the subjects to be discussed at a Smoking At Home it is difficult to conceive. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "er .] A more comprehensive view of 1453 the subjects to be discussed at a Smoking At Home it is difficult to conceive. [ Laughter .] Although there were in that speech some remarks not altogether favourable to the House of Commons as a place of discussion, and some severe remarks upon the Opposition, the right hon. Gentleman, as I desire to acknowledge, was extremely favourable and kind to myself—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "uestion and a question which no member of the Government would shrink from giving a reply to; and, indeed, a reply to these questions will not merely elucidate a great deal of the position, but will, I think, give us a clue for the comprehension of the present and the future. That is exactly the clue we want to get here, which is the proper place, in my opinion, for an exposition of this Question—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "so that we may have that clue to the comprehension of the present and the future. The only point to which it seems to me necessary to refer in that speech—for, no doubt, we will have the substance of it again from the right hon. Gentleman—is that the right hon. Gentleman spoke of the \"solution\" which had been propounded by Her Majesty's Government without any reserve as to the rest of the Powers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "mportant statement. It is one the right hon. Gentleman has made on many occasions in reference to the arrangements of last August in reference to Crete. But I am not sure that it is a very discreet or diplomatic 1454 statement, because when one party in a concert takes all the credit to himself, it is very likely that the other partners might not altogether acquiesce in that view of the situation—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "erence to Crete. But I am not sure that it is a very discreet or diplomatic 1454 statement, because when one party in a concert takes all the credit to himself, it is very likely that the other partners might not altogether acquiesce in that view of the situation—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and there are circumstances which lead one to believe that that is not the view which has been taken in other quarters. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "\"hear, hear!\"]—and there are circumstances which lead one to believe that that is not the view which has been taken in other quarters. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I would also recommend to Her Majesty's Government, if I may be permitted to do so, not to be too anxious to claim all the credit for themselves in this matter, especially in regard to the latter part of the articles which I have read to the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ter part of the articles which I have read to the House. [ Cheers .] I have referred to this speech to make it perfectly clear that, if the Government find themselves entitled in other places to enter into extensive discussion of the present situation, they cannot complain—and I do not believe that they do complain—of our asking for equally full explanation and discussion in the House of Commons. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " state the propositions upon which the questions which I desire to put are founded. First of all, I venture to affirm that the present situation—that is to say, the present insurrection in Crete; the intervention of Greece; the intervention of the Powers by force of arms in Crete—has been the direct result of the entire failure of the arrangements made by the Council of the Powers of last autumn. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "t insurrection in Crete; the intervention of Greece; the intervention of the Powers by force of arms in Crete—has been the direct result of the entire failure of the arrangements made by the Council of the Powers of last autumn. [ Cheers .] That arrangement was founded upon the worn-out idea that you can reform Turkey, leaving Turkey to be the engine and the instrument to carry out those reforms. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "the arrangements made by the Council of the Powers of last autumn. [ Cheers .] That arrangement was founded upon the worn-out idea that you can reform Turkey, leaving Turkey to be the engine and the instrument to carry out those reforms. [ Cheers .] That was the system upon which the reform of last August was founded, and it is because it was founded upon that false conception that it has failed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "placed every obstacle in the way. The Christians were driven to despair by the delay in the execution of the reforms, and eventually hostilities broke out. From this brief account of Georgi Pasha Berovitch it is clear that the Porte took away with one hand what it had given with the other; and thus the full responsibility for the sanguinary events in Crete rests with the Sultan and the Camarilla. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"—because it shows that the fundamental principle and the policy of the Government is the practical expropriation of Turkish rule from the island of Crete. [\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Porte took away with one hand what it had given with the other; and thus the full responsibility for the sanguinary events in Crete rests with the Sultan and the Camarilla. [ Cheers .] We have there the causes of the failure of the arrangements of last August. With regard to the policy set forth by Her Majesty's Government, I observe with satisfaction that the article of autonomy is placed first—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "cal expropriation of Turkish rule from the island of Crete. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Everything depends, in my opinion, upon the completeness of that expropriation, and, therefore, what we have to inquire is how far and how completely does the autonomy that you propose to give to Crete get rid of Turkish rule, which has been the cause of all these evils and to reform which you entirely failed last autumn. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "my which you have put first in the statement of your policy. At all events, this, I hope, is clear and cannot be departed from—that the Government have arrived, and I hope those with whom they are acting have also arrived, at this conviction, that there is no reform possible in Crete except upon the condition of practically and substantially removing all Turkish authority and rule in that island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Renewed cheers .", "preceding_text": "nnot be departed from—that the Government have arrived, and I hope those with whom they are acting have also arrived, at this conviction, that there is no reform possible in Crete except upon the condition of practically and substantially removing all Turkish authority and rule in that island. [ Cheers .] If we have got so far, we have made a great advance in the solution of the Eastern Question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lished in Servia, Then we all remember the experiment of Eastern Roumelia, which was loudly proclaimed as the great triumph of British policy in the Treaty of Berlin. Hardly was the ink dry upon the instrument by which the autonomy of Eastern Roumelia was established when that also disappeared; and the garrison which the Turks were to have held in the heights of the Balkans never appeared at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ern Roumelia as a separate item also disappeared from the face of the arrangements in the Balkan Peninsula. All these figments of Turkish autonomy have disappeared wherever you have a real autonomy and true reforms. But at least let us know that the autonomy which you are going to establish in Crete is a real autonomy which will remove the power of the Turk at once and altogether from the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "u have a real autonomy and true reforms. But at least let us know that the autonomy which you are going to establish in Crete is a real autonomy which will remove the power of the Turk at once and altogether from the island. [ Cheers .] What is this autonomy to be? It is a very vague term without some definition, and we ask you to explain to us its nature. First of all, has the plan been settled? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " the plan been settled? [ Cheers .] That is a most important question. Or is it hung up to be settled in future by the Powers? That is a most material point on which we ought to have an answer. We have always assumed that the policy of Lord Salisbury was first to settle the autonomy beyond further dispute, and then to proceed to the measures which may be necessary to set it in operation in Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "nomy beyond further dispute, and then to proceed to the measures which may be necessary to set it in operation in Crete. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But there has been propounded elsewhere a different policy, and that is why I put this question. It is that autonomy is not to be given first, but that you are first to put down the Cretans in Crete and expel the Greeks, and then discuss the autonomy afterwards. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "utonomy is not to be given first, but that you are first to put down the Cretans in Crete and expel the Greeks, and then discuss the autonomy afterwards. [ Cheers .] It is impossible for two policies to be more discordant than these. Because, what may happen? You may combine to coerce first and quarrel over autonomy afterwards., so that coercion will take place and autonomy will never be realised "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "w whether the policy of Lord Salisbury is, as I believe and hope, the policy of settling 1457 the autonomy first and not to proceed to the coercion until that settlement is arrived at. I would ask what form of autonomy is it that you are going to set up in Crete? I am afraid, from the statements that have been made, that you are going to set up a government which is one the Cretans do not desire. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Renewed cheers .", "preceding_text": " I believe and hope, the policy of settling 1457 the autonomy first and not to proceed to the coercion until that settlement is arrived at. I would ask what form of autonomy is it that you are going to set up in Crete? I am afraid, from the statements that have been made, that you are going to set up a government which is one the Cretans do not desire. [ Cheers .] They wish for union with Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "proceed to the coercion until that settlement is arrived at. I would ask what form of autonomy is it that you are going to set up in Crete? I am afraid, from the statements that have been made, that you are going to set up a government which is one the Cretans do not desire. [ Cheers .] They wish for union with Greece. [ Renewed cheers .] You say that you will not permit that. I want to know why? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "y wish for union with Greece. [ Renewed cheers .] You say that you will not permit that. I want to know why? [ Cheers .] Can there be anything more dangerous in a situation of this kind—can there be anything less statesmanlike—when you are removing one form of government and setting up another, than to set up the new Government in a shape which is distasteful to the people who are to be governed? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "overnor, and I am told that he has a guard of honour of sonic 20 soldiers. And that represents the integrity of the Turkish Empire in Samos. But there the population is homogeneous. They are almost all Christians; the number of Mussulmans is small. In Crete the conditions are totally different. You have a large predominant Christian population, but you have also a large Mussulman population also. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "'\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ulmans is small. In Crete the conditions are totally different. You have a large predominant Christian population, but you have also a large Mussulman population also. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Therefore you must have some controlling power. A merely indigenous autonomy would still leave these two populations face to face uncontrolled; and so that the last state of that island will be worse than the first. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e majority of Christians, for this is not a religious question in any sense of the word. But how in the world is an indigenous autonomy in Crete to keep the peace between these two parties! You have an example of similar conditions in Thessaly, where Greece has to deal with a Christian and a Mussulman population, and from all I have read the Greek Government have done their work well in Thessaly. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "old's reason for declining the Crown of Greece; and it is because, unfortunately, the policy of the Duke of Wellington, which was very different from the policy of Mr. Canning, refused the annexation of Crete to Greece at that period, that we are confronted with the present difficulties. I have yet to understand the ground upon which the English. Government are opposed to the annexation of Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "sus belli; but whether it result in war or not depends on the circumstances of the case. That is a perfectly accurate description of the Greek action. But what have the Powers done? They have gone to Crete; they have taken possession of the territories of the Sultan; and they have assumed to deal with them as they like and to give them to whom they like. That is an intervention at the very least. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " and they have assumed to deal with them as they like and to give them to whom they like. That is an intervention at the very least. [ Laughter .] I have seen that abroad it has been called a \"deposit.\" It is a deposit in one sense. If you take from a man his purse full of money, and you, take the money out of it and give it to someone else, and then return to the man \"the integrity\" of his purse—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": " question on recognised grounds, and in the proper terminology. I want to know what you are now, and at once, going to do with Crete? As I understand, you are going to Lave an occupation, a condominium of the six Powers. And now comes in the statement, to which I have referred, made in another place as to how that condominium , is in the interim to be worked. It is to be worked by Turkish police. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " six Powers. And now comes in the statement, to which I have referred, made in another place as to how that condominium , is in the interim to be worked. It is to be worked by Turkish police. [ Opposition ironical cheers .] The arrangement of a disturbed country by a condominium of six Powers operating through Turkish police seems to be about as unsatisfactory a settlement as you could well have. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " a disturbed country by a condominium of six Powers operating through Turkish police seems to be about as unsatisfactory a settlement as you could well have. [ Cheers .] What is to happen if the six Powers are to depute the Turkish police to go into the mountains and settle the disturbances between the Mahomedan and Christian populations? I really cannot call this anything but an insane proposal. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " and settle the disturbances between the Mahomedan and Christian populations? I really cannot call this anything but an insane proposal. [ Cheers .] Surely you can find some better instrument to pacify Crete than Turkish police acting under the joint direction of the six Powers. The whole difficulty arises from your determina- 1460 tion not to have peace kept by the only people who could keep it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "1460 tion not to have peace kept by the only people who could keep it. [ Cheers .] I have, I hope, moderately put before the Government the points on which we require and request from them information. But I cannot sit down without asking the question which, I am sure, is in the heart of every man in whom the love of freedom breathes. I ask what, under your policy, is to be the fortune of Greece? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " have, I hope, moderately put before the Government the points on which we require and request from them information. But I cannot sit down without asking the question which, I am sure, is in the heart of every man in whom the love of freedom breathes. I ask what, under your policy, is to be the fortune of Greece? [ Cheers .] I say that is the first question in the mind of every Englishman today. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "formation. But I cannot sit down without asking the question which, I am sure, is in the heart of every man in whom the love of freedom breathes. I ask what, under your policy, is to be the fortune of Greece? [ Cheers .] I say that is the first question in the mind of every Englishman today. [ Cheers .] The deliverance of Crete from the abominable tyranny of the Turk is at last I Lope proclaimed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ut asking the question which, I am sure, is in the heart of every man in whom the love of freedom breathes. I ask what, under your policy, is to be the fortune of Greece? [ Cheers .] I say that is the first question in the mind of every Englishman today. [ Cheers .] The deliverance of Crete from the abominable tyranny of the Turk is at last I Lope proclaimed. [ Cheers .] Whose work Las that been? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "o be the fortune of Greece? [ Cheers .] I say that is the first question in the mind of every Englishman today. [ Cheers .] The deliverance of Crete from the abominable tyranny of the Turk is at last I Lope proclaimed. [ Cheers .] Whose work Las that been? [ Cheers .] I say without hesitation and without reserve that the deliverance of Crete is due to the Greek King and to the Greek people alone. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "of every Englishman today. [ Cheers .] The deliverance of Crete from the abominable tyranny of the Turk is at last I Lope proclaimed. [ Cheers .] Whose work Las that been? [ Cheers .] I say without hesitation and without reserve that the deliverance of Crete is due to the Greek King and to the Greek people alone. [ Cheers .] That King and that people have greatly dared and they Lave greatly done. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " of the Turk is at last I Lope proclaimed. [ Cheers .] Whose work Las that been? [ Cheers .] I say without hesitation and without reserve that the deliverance of Crete is due to the Greek King and to the Greek people alone. [ Cheers .] That King and that people have greatly dared and they Lave greatly done. [ Cheers .] They came to the rescue of this oppressed people who had fallen among thieves. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers and Ministerial laughter .", "preceding_text": " Las that been? [ Cheers .] I say without hesitation and without reserve that the deliverance of Crete is due to the Greek King and to the Greek people alone. [ Cheers .] That King and that people have greatly dared and they Lave greatly done. [ Cheers .] They came to the rescue of this oppressed people who had fallen among thieves. [ Cheers .] They came and played the part of the good Samaritan. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ple have greatly dared and they Lave greatly done. [ Cheers .] They came to the rescue of this oppressed people who had fallen among thieves. [ Cheers .] They came and played the part of the good Samaritan. [ Opposition cheers and Ministerial laughter .] Yes, you may laugh, but I say they played the part of the good Samaritan while the concert of the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "an. [ Opposition cheers and Ministerial laughter .] Yes, you may laugh, but I say they played the part of the good Samaritan while the concert of the priest and Levite passed by on the other side. [ Cheers .] That work, worthy of their immortal race, will remain to them as an inheritance of imperishable fame when the laughter of the Gentlemen opposite Las disappeared and I Lope will be forgotten. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "future is dear, to counsel her to any measures which may endanger the noble future that lies before her. She has done great things for freedom in the past, more greater than that which she has accomplished to-day, she has great things to do for freedom in the future. She has given at least autonomy to Crete, and autonomous Crete will one day—I feel assured at an early day—be joined to her Throne. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "past, more greater than that which she has accomplished to-day, she has great things to do for freedom in the future. She has given at least autonomy to Crete, and autonomous Crete will one day—I feel assured at an early day—be joined to her Throne. [ Cheers .] And by a far-sighted policy guiding her undaunted spirit she will live to fulfil that mission of emancipation upon which she has entered. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Loud cheers .", "preceding_text": " policy guiding her undaunted spirit she will live to fulfil that mission of emancipation upon which she has entered. [ Cheers .] Her safety is the precious hope of all that are desolate and oppressed, and we may devoutly pray that she will long endure to hand on, like the torch-bearers of her classic age, the lamp of freedom which her valour has kindled, and which her wisdom may long keep alive. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "e upon the same evening. The reason, if I remember aright, why the Leader of the House was unwilling to surrender Friday was because it would have interfered with the devotion of Friday night to the discussion of Supply. But so successful is that scheme, and so 1462 expeditious on Friday last was the House in the discharge of its business—a compliment which it is only rarely that one can offer it—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "y last was the House in the discharge of its business—a compliment which it is only rarely that one can offer it—[ Opposition cries of \"Oh!\"]—that by nine o'clock the House had risen, and I, therefore, was at liberty to fulfil a long-standing engagement elsewhere. The right hon. Gentleman said that I gave extensive information in that speech. That certainly was not my impression nor my intention. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "loud laughter", "preceding_text": "ct to the new version of the old Scriptural story of the Samaritan and the Levite which we have had put before us this evening by the right hon. Gentleman. Whatever may be the merits, or whatever may have been the conduct of the Samaritan in this case, about which I shall have to say very little, I shall hope at any rate in the observations I have to make to prove that the Levite and the publican—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers .", "preceding_text": "h we have had put before us this evening by the right hon. Gentleman. Whatever may be the merits, or whatever may have been the conduct of the Samaritan in this case, about which I shall have to say very little, I shall hope at any rate in the observations I have to make to prove that the Levite and the publican—[ loud laughter ]—I should have said the priest—have not passed by on the other side. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "less than three weeks ago, they occupied the principal seaports on the coast. By these steps they showed that they were prepared continuously to discharge the obligations they had taken upon themselves last summer. That being so, and the Powers, having, so to speak, taken Crete out of the hands of the Turk, a fortiori they could not allow Crete to be taken by anybody else 1464 out of their hands. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "allow Crete to be taken by anybody else 1464 out of their hands. [ Cheers .] That was the situation after the reforms had been enacted. I will not weary the House by asking them to accompany me through a tedious record of the incidents of last autumn and winter. The right hon. Gentleman says the reforms failed, but they failed because they were never allowed a chance of being carried into effect. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ance of being carried into effect. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The gendarmerie, upon which so much rested, was, owing to inherent difficulties in the constitution of a foreign body, not embodied until the end of the year. § MR. JOHN DILLON (Mayo, E.) was understood to ask who was responsible for the creation of the gendarmerie. *MR. CURZON I could answer that question, but I do not think it is material. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ritish Consul reported that British ships were necessary for the protection of British subjects. They arrived, and I do not think any words used in this House could exaggerate the debt which is owed by both parties in that unhappy island to the exertions on the one hand of the captains and the crews of the vessels, for which my right hon. Friend the First 1465 Lord of the Admiralty is responsible—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "hon. Gentleman had had nothing favourable to say, behaved extremely well, and were held in proper control. Then we come to the events of the first and second weeks of February and the appearance of the Greeks upon the scene. It was on February 7 that a Greek ironclad and transport first arrived, their object being to protect the Greek subjects and to save from danger the Greek women and children. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "we come to the events of the first and second weeks of February and the appearance of the Greeks upon the scene. It was on February 7 that a Greek ironclad and transport first arrived, their object being to protect the Greek subjects and to save from danger the Greek women and children. [ Opposition cheers .] Then on February 12 there arrived the flotilla of gunboats headed by a Prince of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Order!\"", "preceding_text": "ildren. [ Opposition cheers .] Then on February 12 there arrived the flotilla of gunboats headed by a Prince of Greece. [ Opposition cheers .] On the same day a Greek ironclad, although there had been no declaration of war, fired upon a Turkish ship that was conveying Turkish forces to the relief of one of the beleaguered garrisons. § MR. DILLON Was that before or after the burning of Canea? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "[ Opposition cheers .] On the same day a Greek ironclad, although there had been no declaration of war, fired upon a Turkish ship that was conveying Turkish forces to the relief of one of the beleaguered garrisons. § MR. DILLON Was that before or after the burning of Canea? [ Ministerial cries of \"Order!\"] *MR. CURZON The date was February 12, though I do not see the relevancy of the remark. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": "Greek proceedings, upon the motives by which they may have been actuated, I do not desire, it is clearly not my business, to say one word, but there can, I think, be no doubt whatever, from all the information we have received, that, from the first, the arrival of these Greek ships and troops greatly aggravated the situation. \"Hear, hear!\"] On the one hand it excited the Christians with new hopes—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter .", "preceding_text": "there can, I think, be no doubt whatever, from all the information we have received, that, from the first, the arrival of these Greek ships and troops greatly aggravated the situation. \"Hear, hear!\"] On the one hand it excited the Christians with new hopes—[ Opposition cheers ]—and on the other hand it infuriated the Mahommedans and reduced them to a state of sullen rancour and almost of despair. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "e only chance for the peace of the island 1466 lay in the withdrawal of the Greek forces; the continued abstention of the Turks, the mixed occupation of the Powers, and, finally, in the organisation of the gendarmerie and reforms in the administration. Upon the first point, the withdrawal of the Greeks, as the House knows well, the representations that were made by the Powers were without effect. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter, and an HON. MEMBER: \"A tale?\"", "preceding_text": "ople who were beleaguered in one place and in another, and who, from time to time, as the Christians gained the upper hand, suffered, and even in some cases were practically extinguished. Thus, when the right hon. Gentleman talks this evening about the action of Greece having brought hope and peace and goodwill to the island, and when he compares it to the action of the good Samaritan in the tale—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter and cheers", "preceding_text": "to time, as the Christians gained the upper hand, suffered, and even in some cases were practically extinguished. Thus, when the right hon. Gentleman talks this evening about the action of Greece having brought hope and peace and goodwill to the island, and when he compares it to the action of the good Samaritan in the tale—[ Opposition laughter, and an HON. MEMBER: \"A tale?\"]—well in the parable—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "ractically extinguished. Thus, when the right hon. Gentleman talks this evening about the action of Greece having brought hope and peace and goodwill to the island, and when he compares it to the action of the good Samaritan in the tale—[ Opposition laughter, and an HON. MEMBER: \"A tale?\"]—well in the parable—[ Opposition laughter and cheers ]—I always thought a parable was a tale in illustration—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "parable—[ Opposition laughter and cheers ]—I always thought a parable was a tale in illustration—[ cheers ]—I hope he will see that, while I do not desire to dispute for one moment that such may have been the object with which those troops were landed, and with which they endeavoured to conduct themselves, such has not been the consequence in its operation upon the state of society in the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Some Opposition cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": " troops were landed, and with which they endeavoured to conduct themselves, such has not been the consequence in its operation upon the state of society in the island. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I now come to what is really in itself an important incident, but which has, I think, assumed almost undue proportions in the part it has played in public attention in this 1467 country. I allude to the bombardment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ar, hear!\"] I now come to what is really in itself an important incident, but which has, I think, assumed almost undue proportions in the part it has played in public attention in this 1467 country. I allude to the bombardment. [ Some Opposition cries of \"No!\"] I suppose I may allude to the bombardment? I quite understood, with the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that we are discussing wide issues—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lude to the bombardment? I quite understood, with the right hon. Gentleman opposite, that we are discussing wide issues—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and I thought that, as so much has hitherto turned on the incident of the bombardment, and as it is such a material point in the consideration of the question, I might be allowed, perhaps, as we have full information, to state to the House exactly what did occur. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " for the occupying forces, and that, should the Turkish outposts be driven in, fire would then be opened upon the position of the allied forces in the town; that the Admirals were unanimous in deciding to prevent this, and that fire from the ships would be used to check such an advance of the insurgents. The Admirals reported that such a step was necessary for the safety of their men in the town. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "ced and it was reported that any further advance would have to be stopped, that the Admirals were unanimous on this point, and that the step was necessary to prevent loss of life among their own people in the temporary possession of the town, which would be most probable if the investment became closer. In consequence of these messages the Admirals were authorised to assist any attack on the town—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "prevent loss of life among their own people in the temporary possession of the town, which would be most probable if the investment became closer. In consequence of these messages the Admirals were authorised to assist any attack on the town—[ cheers ]—and consequently any censure anyone may have thought fit to bring against the Admirals must be brought against those who sit 1468 upon this Bench. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "doubt, and it may therefore be for the general advantage of the House if I am permitted to read the latest information which we have received. This is the account of what actually happened from the British Admiral:— Revenge at 4,700 yards fired three shells; Harrier at 3,800 yards, Dryad at 4,000 yards, fired each about six shells. That is 15 shells in all in place of the 40 about which we heard. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " yards, the latter about 1,500 yards from the suburbs of Halepa, and these are 1,200 yards from Canea. Insurgents had commenced forward movement, without provocation, for two hours before ships opened fire, and had closed 800 to 1,000 yards on Turkish outposts. Turks were and have been throughout, absolutely passive until attacked, so much so that it is presumed that they are short of ammunition. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"No, no!\" and \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "landed at Akrotiri on his application, on the condition that insurgents remained passive. Last warning was passed through Greek Commodore on the day before attack. This is an interesting and, I think, a conclusive account. We now know that the successive allegations which have played so conspicuous a part at question-time in the House for the last 10 days are for the most part entirely erroneous. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": ", I think, a conclusive account. We now know that the successive allegations which have played so conspicuous a part at question-time in the House for the last 10 days are for the most part entirely erroneous. [\"No, no!\" and \"Hear, hear!\"] I will summarise them. There was an allegation that the proceedings began by an attack 1469 by the Turks on the insurgents, and that I have shown to be untrue. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "m the arsenal at Suda, although they were repeatedly fired on from the hills, and that the British Admiral and his flag lieutenant were fired on by the insurgents while they were reopening the telegraph office outside the arsenal. Now, I do not think that any body can contend that a \"people rightly struggling to be free\" are to be at liberty to fire upon a British Admiral and his flag lieutenant. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "pon a British Admiral and his flag lieutenant. [ Ironical cheers .] There are another half-dozen reports which have done duty during the last ten days, but they also, I am afraid, must be considered to be exploded, culminating in the story of a great massacre of Mussulmans in Sitia. These reports have been industriously circulated, but they must all be relegated to the limbo of exploded fictions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"'Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ious still. Desultory firing has been going on in the neighbourhood of the towns, the Admirals are endeavouring to prevent each side from continuing aggressive action, and we can only hope that their efforts may be attended with good results. I apologise to the House for having detained it so long with this narrative of incidents, which, however, is not immaterial for the formation of a judgment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "heir efforts may be attended with good results. I apologise to the House for having detained it so long with this narrative of incidents, which, however, is not immaterial for the formation of a judgment. [\"'Hear, hear!\"] And now I turn to the larger question raised by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman; his speech was, in fact, a question as to what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rmation of a judgment. [\"'Hear, hear!\"] And now I turn to the larger question raised by the speech of the right hon. Gentleman; his speech was, in fact, a question as to what is the policy of Her Majesty's Government. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Throughout this time of trouble that policy has been based on two main principles—first, 1470 loyalty to our obligations entered into with the other Powers of Europe—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"—that there shall be a government in Crete, but that that government shall not be the government of the Sultan. [\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "RZON Yes; I think that the full assent of the Powers has been received. The right hon. Gentleman has said you are proposing to offer autonomy to Crete—what is that autonomy you are going to give, and can you give us an assurance that it will be full and complete? Sir, by autonomy the Government intend that the effective authority for internal government of the Sultan shall cease to exist in Crete—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "om the fate that otherwise awaits them; and, when slurs are, perhaps not unnaturally, cast upon the Turkish soldiery, it should be remembered that the Turkish soldiers for months past in Crete have acted with exemplary obedience, and that in Armenia and elsewhere, where Turkish soldiers have taken part in lamentable excesses, they did so under the authority and instructions of their own officers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "stions which he will excuse me for saying it is very difficult to reply to. Let me remind him that Great Britain is only one of the six consenting parties, and that each party naturally approaches the question from its own standpoint, and has its own interests to consider. The Powers are not as six men seated at one round table, a situation which we all know is not invariably fraught with harmony—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "like parties at different tables, not all round, and some, indeed, with very sharp corners. But, so far from any undue delay in the proceedings having arisen from the common action of the Powers, I submit to the House unanimity has been arrived at and action has been carried out with very reasonable speed. The right hon. Gentleman has suggested the conclusion he would prefer—annexation to Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ion of the island, that this was the last moment when the prospect of such a step would be likely to lead to peace between the rival factions in the island. What is the only alternative to this autonomy offered? I imagine it would be that Great Britain should recede from the Concert of the Powers, and I cannot think that in any part of the House there will be a disposition to recommend that step. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " Greece, in a region where the slightest spark would kindle a wider flame. It would mean disturbances in Thessaly, and, finally, it would be good-bye to all the reforms we still look forward to carrying out. But I imagine that the real object everybody has in view is the future peace and prosperity of the island. The first condition of that prosperity is its liberation from the rule of the Turks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "te have set before themselves for a century. It was much more than they asked for or were content to receive a year ago. We believe it now meets to the full extent their wants, and I hope that in the course of this Debate, at least, nothing may be said, and I hope nothing has been said in the course of the speech I have made, and which I am grateful to the House for having listened to for so long—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ntent to receive a year ago. We believe it now meets to the full extent their wants, and I hope that in the course of this Debate, at least, nothing may be said, and I hope nothing has been said in the course of the speech I have made, and which I am grateful to the House for having listened to for so long—[ cheers ]—I hope nothing has been said which may in any degree tend to retard that result. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ery large and grave gaps, and that part of the right hon. Gentleman's speech was calculated, and he dared say, intended, to produce the impression that if it had not been for the intervention of Greece, the condition of the people of Crete would be better than it was. He held that the intervention of Greece alone had brought about the present amelioration of the condition of things in the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tion of Greece alone had brought about the present amelioration of the condition of things in the island. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The right hon. Gentleman said the reforms had been adopted, and were apparently going forward very well; but the right hon. Gentleman forgot to tell the House that the acceptance of those reforms by the people of Crete was largely due to pressure from the Government of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "not a notorious fact that the reforms were interrupted by action from Constantinople? Then, the right hon. Gentleman spoke a good deal about the gendarmerie, and from what he said the House might be led to imagine that the gendarmerie had restored peace to the island. Of all the failures in connection with the history of Crete none was so famous and so grotesque as the failure of the gendarmerie. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " first Lord Salisbury had resisted a blockade of Greece; and if he wanted to form an 1474 indictment of Lord Salisbury's present policy he could not do better than to turn to Lord Salisbury's own Dispatches on the subject. The Government had now thrown in their lot with the other Powers as to the coercion of Greece. He wondered if they had asked themselves how that coercion was to be carried out? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "cion was to be carried out? [\"Hear, hear!\"] In the autumn of last year Lord Salisbury was opposed to the policy of blockading Greece. The right hon. Gentleman had indicted the policy of the Greek Government, but he would call his attention to a Dispatch of Lord Salisbury's as to the conduct of Greece last autumn, in which he said that the conduct of the Greek Government had been perfectly correct—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " his attention to a Dispatch of Lord Salisbury's as to the conduct of Greece last autumn, in which he said that the conduct of the Greek Government had been perfectly correct—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and that a blockade of Greece, even by the united fleets of the Powers, would be no easy matter. He was surprised that Lord Salisbury had now entered on a policy which must result in an attempt at a blockade. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lmans and Christians. Furthermore, he would ask, Who was to pay those soldiers? Every correspondent in every capital in Europe declared that the one thing the Powers were determined not to do was to spend one farthing in restoring peace in Crete. This was the joyful and tranquillising information the right hon. Gentleman had to give to the world, the people of Crete, and the Government of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " that which would be allotted to the king of Greece. There was indeed only one final solution of the question—the transfer of the government of Crete to the Government of Greece. Was it not therefore unwise on the part of the Government to delay that solution, to leave the Cretans to the tender mercies of the Turkish soldiers, who only massacred when ordered to do so by their officers and chiefs. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "uld be found that not a few hundreds, but thousands of Mussulmans had been massacred in the interior. He understood why it was that the Irish Members were taking part in this agitation. This Cretan movement was largely an agrarian movement inflamed by religious animosity—it was practically what would happen in Ireland if the persons whom hon. Gentlemen from Ireland represented got the upper hand. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "uered Mussulmans in Crete should be rescued. It was by no means certain that the Cretans desired union with Greece; he believed the majority of the Cretans would prefer independent autonomy under the suzerainty of the Sultan to union with Greece. The action of the Greek Government had been taken not to obtain reforms for Crete, not for Cretan autonomy, but to prevent Crete from enjoying autonomy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cries of \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "nd could not be allowed. He maintained that the Turkish soldiers were among the best disciplined forces in the world. During the Russo-Turkish war, as several hon. Gentlemen opposite knew, they behaved in a most exemplary way towards non-combatants on the other side. He questioned very much whether it could be proved that any organised body of Turkish soldiers took part in the outrages in Armenia—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Oh!\" and an HON. MEMBER: \"How much do you care for Christians being massacred?\" [ Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "atants on the other side. He questioned very much whether it could be proved that any organised body of Turkish soldiers took part in the outrages in Armenia—[ cries of \"Oh, oh!\"]—and tinder suitable leader-shin they could not find a better body of troops for maintaining order and for purposes of policing than Turkish troops. Hon. Members opposite did not care how many Mussulmans were sacrificed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " how many Mussulmans were sacrificed. [ Opposition cries of \"Oh!\" and an HON. MEMBER: \"How much do you care for Christians being massacred?\" [ Opposition cheers .] He felt very deeply indeed for the events that took place in Armenia, and the only reason the hon. 1478 Gentleman made that observation was because he had declined to express sympathy for sham atrocities in Sassun which never happened. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter and Ministerial cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "ocation had come from the Christian population, and that the action of Greece had caused scenes of rapine and massacre. It was only by the intervention and the enforcement of order by the Great Powers that this appalling state of anarchy and bloodshed could be brought to an end. 1479 § MR. R. B. HALDANE (Haddingtonshire) observed that the hon. Member for the Yildiz division of Constantinople—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " to an end. 1479 § MR. R. B. HALDANE (Haddingtonshire) observed that the hon. Member for the Yildiz division of Constantinople—[ Opposition laughter and Ministerial cries of \"Oh!\"] § *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT I rise to order. I must ask you, Sir, whether a personal reference of that kind is permissible? § *MR. SPEAKER I do not think the hon. Member is exceeding the limits of Debate. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers and Ministerial cries of \"Withdraw!\"", "preceding_text": "the Yildiz division of Constantinople—[ Opposition laughter and Ministerial cries of \"Oh!\"] § *SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT I rise to order. I must ask you, Sir, whether a personal reference of that kind is permissible? § *MR. SPEAKER I do not think the hon. Member is exceeding the limits of Debate. [ Opposition cheers .] I do not think the observation was in the nature of a personal insult. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ink the observation was in the nature of a personal insult. [ Opposition cheers and Ministerial cries of \"Withdraw!\"] § MR. HALDANE rose to proceed with his speech, but was received with Ministerial cries of \"Withdraw! \" § *MR. SPEAKER I have already said that I did not think the hon. Member had exceeded the limits of Debate. If I thought he had I would have called upon him to withdraw. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "position cheers .] § MR. HALDANE could assure the hon. Member he did not intend any personal reflection. He observed that this was the first occasion upon which the hon. Gentleman had received any symptom of assent from hon. Members sitting around him. His speech had been listened to in silence, not even the Member for King's Lynn being present to throw the light of his countenance upon him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ated in their memory. It was the Concert of Russia, France, and England that fought the battle of Navarino, and emancipated Greece from Turkish rule. It was by the Concert of Europe that the Treaty of Berlin was passed, and the Balkan States freed from oppression, and he did not think that even now in Montenegro and Servia they would find any disposition to cavil at the work of the Berlin Treaty. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": " proposed autonomy for Crete. If we and the Powers concerned were in earnest—and there was no reason to think the latter were not—the present difficulty would be solved and matters left open for the future union of Greece and Crete. The assurance as to keeping Turkish police in Crete was not wholly satisfactory. We stood at a time which was indeed critical, when a false step might cause mischief. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n it was commonly used on those benches—a country which 1481 had aspirations the most nearly akin to our own. It was hoped that Greece had still before it another great future, and that as part of that future they might see it reach a condition of honourable and effective government in the East of Europe and embrace in its territory the island of Crete, which never should have been taken from it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " had indicated, and to which the Government were, to a certain degree, committed. The hon. and learned Member who had just spoken had intimated that for himself he was prepared to support the policy which Lord Salisbury had indicated. He himself was strongly disposed to sympathise with Lord Salisbury in his foreign policy. In many transactions it had been a policy of which he altogether approved. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "ance of success depended. They were going to establish, or try to establish, an administrative autonomy in Crete, and in pursuit of that design they were going to insist that the Greek and Turkish troops when required should retire. We could not always have our own way, and the real question, so far as he could see, was what was to be done supposing that the retirement was not so easily effected. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "that the retirement was not so easily effected. [ Opposition cheers .] They might address their moral suasion to both parties, and say that it was extremely inconvenient to precipitate a crisis which might cause a European war; they might say that their plans were such that if carried out faithfully they would give good government to Crete. But what if the Greek and Turkish troops did not retire? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Loud Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "should be given requiring them to withdraw. If that could be done peacefully by moral force there was much to be said in favour of maintaining the Concert of Europe by such a process; but if it was to be done by an act of war against Greece, then, he ventured to think, the question would seriously arise whether the United Kingdom must not retire from the Concert of Europe in connection with that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "ce there was much to be said in favour of maintaining the Concert of Europe by such a process; but if it was to be done by an act of war against Greece, then, he ventured to think, the question would seriously arise whether the United Kingdom must not retire from the Concert of Europe in connection with that. [ Loud Opposition cheers .] It was very dangerous to utter such an opinion now, he knew. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "riously arise whether the United Kingdom must not retire from the Concert of Europe in connection with that. [ Loud Opposition cheers .] It was very dangerous to utter such an opinion now, he knew. [ Ministerial cheers ] He had not spoken without much deliberation. He knew it might be said, perhaps with some truth, that the Greeks by such utterances would be encouraged to persevere and to remain. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "remain. [ Ministerial cheers .] But let them observe the alternative. Why had Lord Salisbury put this policy before them? Was it to obtain for them such a concurrence of opinion that if the occasion arose they would be bound to support the use of force against Greece and to support an act of war? If they doubted whether we should be called upon so to act, now was the moment to express that doubt. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t, now was the moment to express that doubt. [ Opposition cheers .] They would be open to just censure of a very severe kind if now, by their silence as much as by their words, they encouraged the other Powers to believe that this country would join in an act of war against Greece, and encouraged Lord Salisbury to think that he would be supported by unanimous public opinion in such an act of war. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nd in a large measure on the conduct of other Powers, and particularly on the conduct of Greece, he still thought they would be open to the severest condemnation if they kept silence 1484 at this crisis and allowed it to be supposed for one moment that we should not hesitate, and hesitate long, before allowing Lord Salisbury to carry them in concert with the other Powers into a war against Greece—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "lead to such a result. The hon. and learned Member who had just sat down had not considered this contingency. If they did not look this contingency in the face, that discussion was worse than useless. His right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition had not said much about it, but he himself had introduced it, and he hoped it might be faced, in one sense or the other, by those who followed him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "inst the present policy of the Liberal Party that he positively went out of his way to attack a speech made by his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. § MR. HALDANE said he had entirely agreed with the speech of the Leader of the Opposition as to what they would like to do, but he was in agreement with the Government, inasmuch as they were doing the only thing that could be done. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " thing that could be done. [ Ministerial cheers .] § MR. LABOUCHERE thought his hon. and learned Friend had made an attack upon the Leader of the Opposition in stronger terms, and had protested against his making reckless speeches on the 1485 ground that they ought to limit themselves to considering what it was possible to do, and that, therefore, the honest, intelligent, and able Government—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "the Opposition in stronger terms, and had protested against his making reckless speeches on the 1485 ground that they ought to limit themselves to considering what it was possible to do, and that, therefore, the honest, intelligent, and able Government—[ laughter ]—ought not to be blamed. He confessed that he himself was going to find fault with his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "that he himself was going to find fault with his right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. [ Laughter .] He entirely agreed with the Under Secretary of State that his right hon. Friend was wrong in comparing them to the Levite and the priest, and the Greeks to the Samaritan. The priest and the Levite went on their way; they did not bombard or blockade the man who had fallen amongst thieves. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "an on what they were doing at present. It was no answer to the complaint that we had bombarded the Cretans to say that we had refused to blockade Crete a year ago. The right hon. Gentleman had said that the Great Powers had taken Crete out of the hands of the Turks and therefore that no one had a right to take Crete out of their hands. But it should be rembered that Crete belonged to the Cretans. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "upon the wishes of the Cretans, and he was not surprised that they should desire to throw oft' the last link of Turkish rule and join with their fellow-countrymen in the kingdom of Greece. The right hon. Gentleman said that all the disturbances in Crete were owing to agitators who were sent over by Greece. Had the right hon. Gentleman any proof of that? *MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) Any amount. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "en in the kingdom of Greece. The right hon. Gentleman said that all the disturbances in Crete were owing to agitators who were sent over by Greece. Had the right hon. Gentleman any proof of that? *MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) Any amount. [ Laughter .] § MR. LABOUCHERE Can the light hon. Gentleman give us chapter and verse? *MR. GIBSON BOWLES I can give the hon. Gentleman chapter and verse. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Renewed laughter .", "preceding_text": "turbances in Crete were owing to agitators who were sent over by Greece. Had the right hon. Gentleman any proof of that? *MR. GIBSON BOWLES (Lynn Regis) Any amount. [ Laughter .] § MR. LABOUCHERE Can the light hon. Gentleman give us chapter and verse? *MR. GIBSON BOWLES I can give the hon. Gentleman chapter and verse. [ Laughter .] § MR. LABOUCHERE No, no! I will not have them from you. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "sturbances. The right hon. Gentleman explained that the international gendarmerie proposed to be established had 1486 not been established, and that consequently the Cretans were left to the tender mercies of the Turkish garrisons. He could understand that under these circumstances the Cretans, dreading further atrocities, had broken out into rebellion, and he thought they were right in doing so. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "tained in questions that had been addressed to him from the Opposition side of the House. The chief question was whether 40 shells had been fired upon the Cretans, and the right hon. Gentleman assured the House that only 15 shells had been fired. It was a small matter whether 40 or 15 shells had been tired. The fact remained that shells had been fired, and it was against that that they protested. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "Greece to have done this, because, subsequently to this, the Great Powers had urged at Constantinople that no fresh troops should be sent to Crete. *MR. CURZON I must have expressed myself unintelligibly. The hon. Gentleman is quite wrong. A long time before this incident in Cretan waters the Ambassadors had constantly urged at Constantinople that it would not be wise to send troops to the island—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers and laughter .", "preceding_text": "the Ambassadors had constantly urged at Constantinople that it would not be wise to send troops to the island—[ cheers ]—and, as a matter of fact, not a single transport was sent to the island. The transport that was stopped by the Greeks was removing Turkish troops from one end of the island to the other. § MR. LABOUCHERE said he thought the Greeks had a perfect right to stop the transport. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "s sent to the island. The transport that was stopped by the Greeks was removing Turkish troops from one end of the island to the other. § MR. LABOUCHERE said he thought the Greeks had a perfect right to stop the transport. [ Cheers and laughter .] His hon. Friend, the Member of Haddington, had said there was no stain upon the honour of this country from what had occurred: at the bombardment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "onour of this country from what had occurred: at the bombardment. [ Ministerial cheers .] That, no doubt, was the view of hon. Gentlemen opposite, but on the Opposition side of the House they were almost all agreed, probably with the sole exception of his hon. Friend the Member for Haddington, that there had been a stain put upon the honour of this country by the bombardment of the Cretan troops. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "n a stain put upon the honour of this country by the bombardment of the Cretan troops. [ Cheers .] Some hard facts remained, and he did not think that any amount of talking on the other side of the House would get over them. The Armenians were massacred for more than a year. During all that time the Ambassadors, like a number of old women, twaddled and twaddled over a table at 1488 Constantinople—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ed the result they anticipated in Crete? After all the agitation in this country in favour of the Christians in Turkey, after all the denunciations of the Sultan at meetings throughout the country, attended not only by the Liberals but by Conservatives, the fact remained that all we had done was that we had fired upon the Cretans, and that we intended to coerce the Greeks into leaving the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "the Greeks into leaving the island. [ Cheers .] With regard to the future what he wanted to know was what the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bodmin wanted to know, were we going to join the Great Powers in coercing the Greeks if they do not leave Crete, and if they refuse to submit to the will of the Great Powers? If we were not prepared to do so, we ought, at once, to tell the Great Powers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ks if they do not leave Crete, and if they refuse to submit to the will of the Great Powers? If we were not prepared to do so, we ought, at once, to tell the Great Powers. [ Cheers .] We had no right to sign Joint Notes sent on behalf of the Great Powers to Greece, and saying that we would coerce the Greeks if they did not retire from Crete, if it was not our intention to do anything of the kind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers and laughter .", "preceding_text": "e ought, at once, to tell the Great Powers. [ Cheers .] We had no right to sign Joint Notes sent on behalf of the Great Powers to Greece, and saying that we would coerce the Greeks if they did not retire from Crete, if it was not our intention to do anything of the kind. [ Cheers .] They were told that the Concert of Europe might break up. For his part he did not care if the Concert did break up. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "] In this matter of the Eastern Question we had ever been the evil genius of Europe. We had forced Europe into war in order to maintain the integrity of the Turkish Empire. What had we done in the case of Crete? In 1867, when the Cretans had vanquished the Turks and were almost independent, the Concert of Europe wanted to give autonomy to the Cretans? Who stopped it? We, and we alone, stopped it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e almost independent, the Concert of Europe wanted to give autonomy to the Cretans? Who stopped it? We, and we alone, stopped it. [ Cheers .] And then we talked about using the Concert of Europe. We stood to the Concert when it acted as we wished, and retired from it when it did not. But now we were absolutely told that we were to commit what would unquestionably be an atrocious and wicked crime. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers and ironical cheers .", "preceding_text": "t when it did not. But now we were absolutely told that we were to commit what would unquestionably be an atrocious and wicked crime. [ Cheers .] We were to drive the Greeks out of Crete if they would not go of their own accord, in order that the Concert of Europe should 1489 not be broken down. The Government had no right to drag this country into an infamous attack on civilisation and humanity. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "ans often attacked the Turks; but the Mussulmans always forced the soldiery and gendarmerie to side with them, their co-religionists; and in any disturbances between Mahomedans and Christians in Turkey the troops always ended their interference by helping to massacre the Christians. One thing must be made as clear as possible. The Government might carry out their policy by means of their majority "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers and cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "e soldiery and gendarmerie to side with them, their co-religionists; and in any disturbances between Mahomedans and Christians in Turkey the troops always ended their interference by helping to massacre the Christians. One thing must be made as clear as possible. The Government might carry out their policy by means of their majority [ Ministerial cheers ]—but it was not the policy of the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " clear as possible. The Government might carry out their policy by means of their majority [ Ministerial cheers ]—but it was not the policy of the country. [ Cheers and cries of \"Oh!\"] It was not the policy of the united country. It was the policy of the Unionist Party. The Opposition protested against it, and regarded it as the greatest crime we could commit to attack the Greeks in this fashion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "l cheers ]—but it was not the policy of the country. [ Cheers and cries of \"Oh!\"] It was not the policy of the united country. It was the policy of the Unionist Party. The Opposition protested against it, and regarded it as the greatest crime we could commit to attack the Greeks in this fashion. [ Cheers .] Liberals all over the country, with the single exception of the hon. Member for Haddington—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "ironical cheers and laughter", "preceding_text": "s and cries of \"Oh!\"] It was not the policy of the united country. It was the policy of the Unionist Party. The Opposition protested against it, and regarded it as the greatest crime we could commit to attack the Greeks in this fashion. [ Cheers .] Liberals all over the country, with the single exception of the hon. Member for Haddington—[ laughter ]—were opposed to the Government of this country—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No!\" It was really a little too absurd—[ ironical cheers", "preceding_text": "rotested against it, and regarded it as the greatest crime we could commit to attack the Greeks in this fashion. [ Cheers .] Liberals all over the country, with the single exception of the hon. Member for Haddington—[ laughter ]—were opposed to the Government of this country—[ ironical cheers and laughter ]—siding with the Turks against the Christians; and that the Government had certainly clone. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "ghter ]—were opposed to the Government of this country—[ ironical cheers and laughter ]—siding with the Turks against the Christians; and that the Government had certainly clone. [ Cries of \"No!\" It was really a little too absurd—[ ironical cheers ]—of hon. Members opposite to say, after we had fired at the Cretans in order to protect Canea from their attack, that we had not sided with the Turks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "had certainly clone. [ Cries of \"No!\" It was really a little too absurd—[ ironical cheers ]—of hon. Members opposite to say, after we had fired at the Cretans in order to protect Canea from their attack, that we had not sided with the Turks. [ Cries of \"No!\"] Should we be told that we were not siding with the Turks if, as Lord Salisbury had announced, we used force to compel the Greeks to retire? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " were not siding with the Turks if, as Lord Salisbury had announced, we used force to compel the Greeks to retire? [ Cheers .] The policy of Her Majesty's Government might be in accordance with the views of hon. Members opposite and of their constituents, but it was entirely contrary to the views of hon. Members on the Opposition side of the House, and to the views of those whom they represented. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and Opposition laughter .", "preceding_text": "ng brought about in Constantinople. Nor was he disposed to think that Lord Rosebery would regard such an event with equanimity, hon. Members opposite, and also the Leader of the Opposition, had east doubt on the efficiency of the Concert of Europe. What they had to consider in the present instance was whether it was worth the risk of a European war on account of sentimental admiration for Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " the present instance was whether it was worth the risk of a European war on account of sentimental admiration for Greece. [\"Hear, hear!\" and Opposition laughter .] For his part he declared most emphatically that it was not. At the present time, despite the insinuations of hon. Gentlemen opposite, he believed the Powers were in agreement, and that not one of them approved of the action of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "Great Powers showed any signs of hesitation, or of retiring from the Concert, what was already a difficult situation might at once become a most dangerous one; and, in conclusion, he would venture to suggest that those who, apparently with a light heart, were going to take part in a Division that would amount to a Vote of Censure on the Government, would thereby incur a very grave responsibility. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "hey were proposing to set up autonomy in Crete. How were they going to do it? He did not think the Government knew themselves. [\"Hear, heal\"] They were told that the Turkish gendarmerie were to be employed in Crete. Were the gendarmerie to be police, or were they to be Turkish soldiers acting as such, and were they to be under Turkish officers, and, if so, who was to control the Turkish officers? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "\"Hear, heal\"] They were told that the Turkish gendarmerie were to be employed in Crete. Were the gendarmerie to be police, or were they to be Turkish soldiers acting as such, and were they to be under Turkish officers, and, if so, who was to control the Turkish officers? [ Cheers .] Suppose Crete firmly rejected the proposals of the Powers, was it proposed to coerce the Cretans as well as Greece? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ey to be Turkish soldiers acting as such, and were they to be under Turkish officers, and, if so, who was to control the Turkish officers? [ Cheers .] Suppose Crete firmly rejected the proposals of the Powers, was it proposed to coerce the Cretans as well as Greece? [ Cheers .] If, so, how was it to be done? Was it to be done by Turkish soldiers or the gendarmerie, or by sending British soldiers? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "Powers, was it proposed to coerce the Cretans as well as Greece? [ Cheers .] If, so, how was it to be done? Was it to be done by Turkish soldiers or the gendarmerie, or by sending British soldiers? [ Cheers .] Did the Government contemplate with equanimity the prospect of diverting the Guards from Gibraltar and sending them to Greece to force upon her an autonomy which the Cretans might not want? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": " Haddington that the Concert of Europe had done as much as he claimed. The hon. Member began by carrying them, back to the Treaty of Berlin and to the freedom which was given to various countries which, until then, were under the dominion of the Turk, and he exclaimed, \"See what the Concert of Europe did then?\" But the hon. Member was altogether in error in taking that view. It was Russian action—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "on. Member began by carrying them, back to the Treaty of Berlin and to the freedom which was given to various countries which, until then, were under the dominion of the Turk, and he exclaimed, \"See what the Concert of Europe did then?\" But the hon. Member was altogether in error in taking that view. It was Russian action—[ cheers ]—sole and isolated action, which brought about that happy result. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "were under the dominion of the Turk, and he exclaimed, \"See what the Concert of Europe did then?\" But the hon. Member was altogether in error in taking that view. It was Russian action—[ cheers ]—sole and isolated action, which brought about that happy result. [ Cheers .] Unfortunately the action of Russia as set forth in the Treaty of San Stefano was curtailed at Berlin by the Concert of Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "final cession of Thessaly to Greece, and to the extension of Montenegrin boundaries, but was he sure that the Concert of Europe was so effective on that occasion as he 1493 seemed to think? He should have thought that happy result was due rather to the action of England. It was true that on that occasion Russia co-operated with England. But two or three of the Great Powers stood altogether aloof. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "at occasion Russia co-operated with England. But two or three of the Great Powers stood altogether aloof. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He would not say for a moment that the Concert of Europe was not a great instrument for effecting national purposes in European policy. If an important thing was to be done in Europe it followed that the more Powers that could unite to compel that it should be done the better. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "thing was to be done in Europe it followed that the more Powers that could unite to compel that it should be done the better. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That was obvious; but if now one among the six Great Powers of Europe actuated by a selfish motive and by threatening a little opposition reduced the European Concert to impotence, then the alleged Concert of Europe might become a disgrace to Europe itself. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "selfish motive and by threatening a little opposition reduced the European Concert to impotence, then the alleged Concert of Europe might become a disgrace to Europe itself. [\"Hear, hear!\"] They had been told for three years past what the Concert of Europe was to do. They had waited patiently and were still waiting for some definite result, but the Concert had done nothing up to the present time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er for Bodmin had pointed out—then departed from the European Concert by telling the Powers that he would be no party to such a proposal. If the Prime Minister could act apart from the Concert of Europe in one respect he could act apart from it in another. He repeated that up to the present time the Concert of Europe had effected no positive or lasting result, not even in relieving the Armenians. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and Ministerial dissent .", "preceding_text": "se hon. Members who agreed with him looked upon the Concert of the Powers with grave suspicion. He could understand the policy of the Government up to a certain point. They had committed themselves over and over again with regard to other Powers to maintain the Concert of Europe, and bound themselves hand and foot by making the integrity of the Turkish Empire one of the mainstays of their policy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "was mentioned in the Queen's Speech, and it was impossible for right hon. Gentlemen opposite to deny that it was one of the mainstays of 1494 their policy. He was much pleased, however, that evening, when he heard the right hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs say that the first condition of the good government of Crete was the liberation of the island from the rule of the Turk. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Gentleman the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs say that the first condition of the good government of Crete was the liberation of the island from the rule of the Turk. [\"Hear, hear!\"] With that sentiment he heartily agreed, but he confessed that he utterly failed to perceive how it could be associated or reconciled with the object of preserving the territorial integrity of the Turkish Empire. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": " an independent Roumania. The Powers assembled in Paris, and to save their dignity decided that they must adhere to their action and again set up the two Assemblies. Then Wallachia and Moldavia decided to elect Prince Alexander, and so they were united through their head. Subsequently they again decided to have one Assembly. They proclaimed their unity, and Europe, completely baffled, acquiesced. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "via decided to elect Prince Alexander, and so they were united through their head. Subsequently they again decided to have one Assembly. They proclaimed their unity, and Europe, completely baffled, acquiesced. [ Opposition cheers .] Did Europe get much satisfaction out of that? If some such result happened in the case of Greece we should welcome it, but it would reflect no credit on this country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "ently they again decided to have one Assembly. They proclaimed their unity, and Europe, completely baffled, acquiesced. [ Opposition cheers .] Did Europe get much satisfaction out of that? If some such result happened in the case of Greece we should welcome it, but it would reflect no credit on this country. [\"Hear, hear!\"] It was premature to express a final judgment upon the matters before them—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "e matter. They did not know, and he did not believe the Government knew, what were the real views of the Cretans themselves; and, further, they did not know what exact shape the proposals for autonomy were going to take. Personally, he would not 1495 be a party to that policy, indicated to a certain extent by the action of the warships off Canea; he would not be a party to the coercion of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": " not be a party to the coercion of Greece. [ Opposition cheers .] He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bodmin that all these years the Powers had done nothing. Greece had acted with promptitude, with decision, and with success, and by her action she had forced the hand of Europe, and Europe was labouring heavily in the rear. Because Greece had done what Europe ought to have done—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "reece had acted with promptitude, with decision, and with success, and by her action she had forced the hand of Europe, and Europe was labouring heavily in the rear. Because Greece had done what Europe ought to have done—[ Opposition cheers ]—he would have no part whatever in coercing her. She had done great service to the cause of liberty in Europe, and deserved the gratitude of every Britisher. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " an impartial standpoint. The hon. and learned Member for Haddington said he longed to see the day when Crete would be reunited to the kingdom of Greece. When in the world's history had there been a kingdom of Greece to which Crete belonged? Never. Who were the gentlemen who were rousing the sentimental enthusiasm of hon. Gentlemen opposite? Who were these Levantines who called themselves Greeks? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "ntlemen opposite? Who were these Levantines who called themselves Greeks? [\"Oh!\"] They were a mixture of Albanians, Franks, Slavs, and everybody except Greeks. There were no men of Greek blood on the mainland, whatever there might be in Crete, They were gone over and over again. What 1496 was there in the history of these people to arouse enthusiasm? Did hon. Gentlemen like fraudulent bankruptcy? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " to arouse enthusiasm? Did hon. Gentlemen like fraudulent bankruptcy? [\"Oh, oh!\"] Oh, let them have the truth! He would suggest some test-books. Let them read \"The War of Greek Independence,\" by a respectable Scotchman, Mr. Finlay. The Greeks, carrying out their national aspiration for the acquisition of other people's property without paying for it, stole some of Mr. Finlay's property in Athens. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ther people's property without paying for it, stole some of Mr. Finlay's property in Athens. [ Laughter .] If hon. Gentlemen did not like a Scotchman's view of the Greeks, let them take that of an able Frenchman in Le Roi des Montagnes , an amusing satire, which gave a very fair picture of the modern Greek character. Or let them turn from the romantic to the more prosaic Stock Exchange Year Book. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "ed Crete in the past, would be, on the whole, the best arrangement that could be made. The Leader of the Opposition said that a mere indigenous autonomy would not do, because of the strong religious differences. Those were curious words for an advocate of Home Rule to utter, for he must know that precisely the same conditions which now existed in Crete had existed on various occasions in Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "rth living for these poor people. He must say it was a significant contrast to note that when in South Africa it was a question of British supremacy, which found its outcome largely in the development of commercial undertakings and the amassing of large fortunes, which the German Emperor for a moment threatened, the soul of England, the England of the classes, the England of hon. Members opposite—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "a European force and that the Turks should be absolutely removed from the island? That seemed to him the simplest and most natural course it England was not strong enough to carry out the policy which he had ventured to suggest. There was no part of the Blue-book which reflected so great honour on Lord Salisbury as the Dispatch in which he referred to his refusal to join in the blockade of Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "the island to herself. The right hon. Gentleman opposite said that the Greeks were good Samaritans; but the good Samaritan was a man who, going about his lawful business, found a victim of oppression and poured oil and wine into his wounds. But these Greeks were persons who, going about on unlawful business and finding a victim, poured, not oil and wine into his wounds, but gunpowder and vitriol. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "he slave traders were individuals, and the slave trade was not carried on by a Government. *MR. GIBSON BOWLES said if the right hon. Gentleman had gone up some of the oil rivers from the Bight of 1507 Benin, he would have found the trade conducted absolutely through and by the sovereign of the country, and he must, know that under the Law of Nations one sovereign was as good as another sovereign. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ad borne an evil character which their history had justified. They were always rebels against any Government, and they would be still rebels. For 900 years they rebelled against the Romans, for 400 years they rebelled against the Venetians, and for 200 years they had rebelled against Turkey, and they would still rebel even though their sovereign were the hon. Gentleman the Member for Northampton. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " failure of that constitution took place before the ink was dry with which it was printed, and it might almost be said before it was printed, for its failure was announced before the Blue-book conveying the information of it was distributed in the House. Why did it fail? The right hon. Gentleman the Member for West Monmouth said, because the 1508 Turks opposd it and threw difficulties in its way. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "ons of gratitude. The Christian Deputies accepted the 14 articles in the name of the Christian population, they assured the Consul of the grateful acknowledgment of the Christian population, and expressed their anticipations of the effect of the new regulations as conducive to the peace and progress of the island in language not unlike the peroration of a Home Rule speech in the House of Commons. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " § MR. ARNOLD-FORSTER (Belfast, W.) desired to intervene in the Debate because he felt, and he believed others felt with him, that the speeches made by the hon. Member for Lynn Regis, the hon. Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield, and peculiarly the speech made by the hon. Member for St. Albans, did not represent and ought not to be considered to represent the views of their Party. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ". Member for the Ecclesall Division of Sheffield, and peculiarly the speech made by the hon. Member for St. Albans, did not represent and ought not to be considered to represent the views of their Party. [ Cheers .] He did not believe that there were 10 per cent. of the hon. Members on that side of the House who desired to associate themselves with the attacks which had been made upon the Greeks. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": "ercial company in South Africa. The Greeks entered upon their action in Crete at enormous risk. Politicians at the helm of the great nations of Europe might regard their action as incompatible either with the future of Greece or the welfare of Europe, but that was totally different from the spirit of censure which had been exhibited. The prevailing sentiment in this country did not condemn Greece—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\" and laughter", "preceding_text": "be a very difficult task to subdue them. Did the Government propose to let loose the Turkish troops into the interior of the island? He suggested that by far the best course, if the Powers insisted on continuing their occupation, 1515 would be to make use of the Greek troops for the preservation of order. Not a word had been said against the Greek troops; they were the troops of a civilised Power—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "re of Greece, for Greece was entitled to the great credit of having done what the Powers ought to have done long ago. It was owing to the neglect by the Powers of the provisions of the Treaty of Berlin that the condition of Macedonia was so dangerous. They were now told that Crete was to receive \"administrative autonomy,\" but those words were not mentioned until the Greeks had entered the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "Greece. He hoped the union of Crete with Greece would not be long delayed. The Powers apparently wished to retard its accomplishment, but the best way to remove the cause of danger was to remove the cause of discontent. What had the Concert of Europe accomplished? It was the Concert of Europe that, during the last two years, had secured immunity for the Sultan of Turkey in his policy of massacre. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "entertaining very different views of their own interests. Some Powers had no care for Crete; some had no respect for the will of the people; some had said that their first object was to preserve the integrity of the Turkish Empire, and to preserve it apparently by maintaining still longer a rule which the Christian subjects of the Sultan had found intolerable. But we were not one of those Powers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "f their own interests. Some Powers had no care for Crete; some had no respect for the will of the people; some had said that their first object was to preserve the integrity of the Turkish Empire, and to preserve it apparently by maintaining still longer a rule which the Christian subjects of the Sultan had found intolerable. But we were not one of those Powers. [ Cheers .] We were a free people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "an had found intolerable. But we were not one of those Powers. [ Cheers .] We were a free people. [ Cheers .] We believed that the 1516 revolt of the Cretans and the intervention of Greece on their behalf were amply justified, and we desired the extinction, as soon as possible, over as large an area as possible, of the rule of the Turk, which had everywhere proved a desolating and blighting rule. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "rs of Europe, their influence should be exercised in securing for all the subjects of Turkey the maximum of freedom, the release of as many Christian people as possible from the direct rule of the Sultan, and that the utmost consideration should be shown to Greece, who, in its intervention in Crete, had been animated by the best motives, with which the people of this country heartily sympathised. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n to Greece, who, in its intervention in Crete, had been animated by the best motives, with which the people of this country heartily sympathised. [ Cheers .] § COLONEL SAUNDERSON (Armagh, N.) congratulated the House on the marked difference in tone between the speeches of hon. Members on the Opposition side in criticising the Government and their speeches on the subject on former occasions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "peeches on the subject on former occasions. [\"Hear, hear!\"] It was now felt that the position of affairs in Crete was of so grave; a character that the violent language which had been used on former occasions was unsuited to the situation. But his main reason for rising was because it was assumed by hon. Gentlemen opposite that sympathy with Greece was only to be found on their side of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "hat sympathy with Greece was only to be found on their side of the House. [ Opposition cries of \"No, no!\"] He had heard it said by several Members, and especially by the hon. Member for Northampton. Perhaps those hon. Gentlemen got that idea from the speeches made by three or four hon. Members on the Ministerial side, who were almost alone in being unqualified admirers of the Sultan and his rule. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "aid by several Members, and especially by the hon. Member for Northampton. Perhaps those hon. Gentlemen got that idea from the speeches made by three or four hon. Members on the Ministerial side, who were almost alone in being unqualified admirers of the Sultan and his rule. [ Laughter .] He was not afraid to state that he had always sympathised, and that he now entirely sympathised, with Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "Gentlemen got that idea from the speeches made by three or four hon. Members on the Ministerial side, who were almost alone in being unqualified admirers of the Sultan and his rule. [ Laughter .] He was not afraid to state that he had always sympathised, and that he now entirely sympathised, with Greece. [ Cheers .] Greece was now acting a part which Englishmen would act in similar circumstances. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "terial side, who were almost alone in being unqualified admirers of the Sultan and his rule. [ Laughter .] He was not afraid to state that he had always sympathised, and that he now entirely sympathised, with Greece. [ Cheers .] Greece was now acting a part which Englishmen would act in similar circumstances. [ Cheers .] If there were an island 60 miles from our coast—the same distance as Ireland—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "there were an island 60 miles from our coast—the same distance as Ireland—[ laughter ]—and if men of the same race and the same religion as ourselves suffered the persecutions to which the Cretans had been subjected, he ventured to say that no man calling himself an Englishman and worthy 1517 of the name would hesitate for one moment to adopt the course the Greeks had followed in regard to Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d if men of the same race and the same religion as ourselves suffered the persecutions to which the Cretans had been subjected, he ventured to say that no man calling himself an Englishman and worthy 1517 of the name would hesitate for one moment to adopt the course the Greeks had followed in regard to Crete. [ Cheers .] But the real difficulty in the situation was the present attitude of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ng himself an Englishman and worthy 1517 of the name would hesitate for one moment to adopt the course the Greeks had followed in regard to Crete. [ Cheers .] But the real difficulty in the situation was the present attitude of Greece. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If Greece now acted in a precipitate and unreasonable manner she would destroy whatever hope there was of accomplishing the object she had in view. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ew. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If Greece could be got to withdraw her troops from Crete the main difficulty of the situation would disappear, and the fault he found with the scheme proposed by his right hon. Friend the Under Secretary—which, it must be remembered, was not the policy absolutely of Her Majesty's Government, but the policy of the Concert of Europe—was that it made it hard for Greece to comply. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " found with the scheme proposed by his right hon. Friend the Under Secretary—which, it must be remembered, was not the policy absolutely of Her Majesty's Government, but the policy of the Concert of Europe—was that it made it hard for Greece to comply. [\"Hear, hear!\"] It should be the duty of this country to do all that was possible with the view of making it easy for Greece to retire from Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "for Greece to comply. [\"Hear, hear!\"] It should be the duty of this country to do all that was possible with the view of making it easy for Greece to retire from Crete. [\"Hear, hear!\"] What was the defect in the scheme proposed which would make this important object difficult of attainment? Why, that it was proposed, or suggested, to leave the maintenance of order in the island to Turkish police. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ble with the view of making it easy for Greece to retire from Crete. [\"Hear, hear!\"] What was the defect in the scheme proposed which would make this important object difficult of attainment? Why, that it was proposed, or suggested, to leave the maintenance of order in the island to Turkish police. [ Opposition cheers .] It was idle to expect that the Greeks would approve of any such arrangement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "f attainment? Why, that it was proposed, or suggested, to leave the maintenance of order in the island to Turkish police. [ Opposition cheers .] It was idle to expect that the Greeks would approve of any such arrangement. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If the European Powers wanted to make it easy for Greece to retire from Crete, the withdrawal of the Turkish and Greek troops should take place at the same time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " .] It was idle to expect that the Greeks would approve of any such arrangement. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If the European Powers wanted to make it easy for Greece to retire from Crete, the withdrawal of the Turkish and Greek troops should take place at the same time. [ Cheers .] He confessed that he had no confidence whatever in Turkish police, and he believed that very few persons had confidence in them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "tory of the immediate past did not justify, on the part of the House of Commons, much less on the part of Greece or of the Cretan people, any feeling of confidence whatever in Turkish police or in Turkish officers. Such an arrangement would practically still give Turkey power over the island; and, in view of both the present and the future, he would not abide by it if he were a Cretan or a Greek. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and laughter .", "preceding_text": "atever in Turkish police or in Turkish officers. Such an arrangement would practically still give Turkey power over the island; and, in view of both the present and the future, he would not abide by it if he were a Cretan or a Greek. [ Cheers .] Why had the Powers of Europe taken up this question? As far as he could see, they were governed by two motives—suspicion of each other and self-interest. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "troops. If such a line as that were taken peace would probably be secured to Crete; time given to the people to organise themselves into a civilised nation, and, as the years went by, Greece, if she could only exercise patience, would see, what he believed the majority of the English people desired to see, the fruition of her hopes in the annexation ultimately of the island to the mother-country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "r period than was anticipated either by the Leader of the Opposition or by myself when it began, and as there is still some business to transact before 12 o'clock, the House probably will allow me to intervene at this stage in order to answer certain questions that have been put to the Government since the able and exhaustive speech of my right hon. Friend the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "nder Secretary for Foreign Affairs. [ Cheers .] Now, various Members on the other side, doubtless with different degrees of conviction, have attacked the Conceit of Europe. The Concert of Europe, it is said, may be all very well as far as it goes, but what has it done either for Crete or for Greece, or for Europe as a whole, during the years it has been in existence? Sir, I take up that challenge—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "the years it has been in existence? Sir, I take up that challenge—[ cheers ]—and I say that, whether we consider the action of the Concert of Europe in regard to the particular places situated in the Eastern part of Europe, or whether we regard it in relation to the peace of Europe as a whole, the services it has done during the last few years had been incalculable to mankind and to civilisation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e, the services it has done during the last few years had been incalculable to mankind and to civilisation. [ Cheers .] I do not, of course, deny—who can deny?—that the Concert of Europe, powerful, useful, and effective instrument though it be, is an instrument which, from the nature of its constitution, must work 1519 slowly, and, from that fact, must, under some circumstances, work imperfectly. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " tells us that the European Concert has not only so far been useless, but has in certain respects been absolutely noxious—when he goes the length of telling us that but for the European Concert it would have been possible for this country to exercise pressure upon the Porte in favour of the good government of the subjects of the Porte—then I must tell the right hon. Gentleman that he is mistaken. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ee years to exercise separate and independent pressure upon the Porte outside the Concert of Europe would not only in my judgment have broken up that Concert, but it would have been rendered absolutely ineffectual by the opposition of other Powers of Europe, who would have felt themselves naturally absolved from all loyalty to the general arrangement which by our action would have been destroyed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "een useless up to the present time, and that if now, at the eleventh hour, Europe has determined to give autonomy to Crete, that determination is the result simply of the action of the Greek power, and that if Europe had stood aside and had never intervened, Greece, having a free hand, would have brought about that desirable result, it might be months, it might be years ago. That is not the fact. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers and cries of \"No, no!\"", "preceding_text": "d on one side and had left Turkey and Greece to light out the destinies of Crete together, is there a man in this House who doubts for one moment that Crete, instead of being as she is now, upon the very verge and edge of receiving complete autonomy under a Turkish suzerainty, would have been ground down under the heel of the Ottoman, dominion, and that Greece would have been absolutely powerless—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ies of Crete together, is there a man in this House who doubts for one moment that Crete, instead of being as she is now, upon the very verge and edge of receiving complete autonomy under a Turkish suzerainty, would have been ground down under the heel of the Ottoman, dominion, and that Greece would have been absolutely powerless—[ cheers and cries of \"No, no!\"]—to obviate that disastrous result? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ceiving complete autonomy under a Turkish suzerainty, would have been ground down under the heel of the Ottoman, dominion, and that Greece would have been absolutely powerless—[ cheers and cries of \"No, no!\"]—to obviate that disastrous result? [ Cheers .] So much for the effects of the Concert 1520 of Europe in Asia and in Crete. What has been the result of the Concert of Europe in Europe itself? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "in Crete. What has been the result of the Concert of Europe in Europe itself? [ Cheers .] It is an easy criticism to say that if the Concert of Europe had been more rapid in its unanimity, quicker in its action, more dexterous, more rapid in its decisions, this evil or that evil might have been avoided. I dare say it might have been. But without the Concert of Europe would Europe now be at peace? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "rance, or Germany, or any other of the Powers concerned, who does not recognise the critical and dangerous character of the crisis through which Europe has been passing during the last three or four years, and who does not hold it as a cardinal article of his faith that it is the Concert founded; if the Concert of Europe be alone, which has preserved Europe from the untold evils of a general war. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ture; and if, in addition to all these benefits, it has given peace to Europe—then I have vindicated, and vindicated completely, the enormous advantage which the Concert of Europe has given to mankind, and I have laid before the House the strongest reason which exists for our doing all that we can, consistently with our other duties, to maintain that Concert unimpaired so far as we are concerned. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "haracter of the autonomy which we desire should be given to Crete, and he asked whether there was to be a Christian Governor, whether that Governor was to be irremovable, and what his position would be. I should not say that Crete had autonomy at nil unless there was a Christian Governor or, at all events, if it did not depend on the Cretans themselves whether their Governor was Christian or not. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "overnor was Christian or not. [ Cheers .] I am not in a position to tell the House what is to be the Constitution of Crete, but I am in a position to tell the House that by autonomy, subject to the suzerainty of the Porte, we mean a form of Government familiar in the Turkish Empire, in which the Sultan and the Porte will not have the power of intervening in the local affairs of the country at all—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " I can assure hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and I can assure my hon. and gallant Friend who spoke last, that we are as alive as they are, and he is to the absolute necessity of seeing that under any circumstances the Turkish soldiers in Crete shall be under the control of the Powers whatever be the exact day or month on which or in which the last of them is required to leave the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "se that at this moment the Mussulman population is in a minority—relatively speaking, an insignificant minority—and if you could suppose all the Mussulman troops were withdrawn, and no power, no gendarmerie, established in the island, undoubtedly the first result would be a great massacre of Mussulmans by Christians—a result which, I believe, would be equally abhorrent on both sides of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"What States?\"", "preceding_text": "tes, by which I suppose he meant Servia, Bulgaria, and Roumania, look to Greece as their leader— § *SIR W. HARCOURT I beg pardon. I certainly never thought it, and I do not think I ever said it. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY What was the phrase? He said they looked to Greece. § *SIR W. HARCOURT Not the States that have been emancipated; the States that have not been emancipated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "to Greece. § *SIR W. HARCOURT Not the States that have been emancipated; the States that have not been emancipated. [An HON. MEMBER: \"What States?\"] I intended, of course, populations. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY Of course, I accept the right hon. Gentleman's version of his own speech, but a speech in which he talked about States that do not exist seems to me a very curious speech. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d be dangerous to hand over Crete to be an integral part of the Greek Kingdom. In 1886 the right hon. Gentleman and his friends came into power; it was immediately after the State of Eastern Roumelia was joined to Bulgaria, and formed the community which is at present ruled over by the Prince of Bulgaria. The result of that junction—in my opinion a very fortunate and happy junction of populations—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "o quo for the increase of dominion which had been given to Bulgaria. The English Government, of which the right hon. Gentleman was a member, and of which the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Aberdeen, who last spoke, was the Under Secretary for 1524 Foreign Affairs, and the Concert of Europe proceeded to inform the Greek Government that this menace of the peace of Europe would not be tolerated—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": "Greece forthwith to disarm. The Greek Government of that time, a Government quite as anxious for freedom as I believe the present one is, and animated by the very same motives, proved recalcitrant. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, adhering to their opinion and acting with the Concert of Europe, proceeded to inform the Greek Government that under those circumstances force must be used. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "hon. Gentleman and his colleagues, adhering to their opinion and acting with the Concert of Europe, proceeded to inform the Greek Government that under those circumstances force must be used. [ Ministerial cheers .] And force was used, and under the auspices of the right hon. Gentleman and the Member for Aberdeen and his colleagues upon that Bench, not excluding the right hon. Member for Montrose—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "rope, proceeded to inform the Greek Government that under those circumstances force must be used. [ Ministerial cheers .] And force was used, and under the auspices of the right hon. Gentleman and the Member for Aberdeen and his colleagues upon that Bench, not excluding the right hon. Member for Montrose—[ cheers ]—the whole coast of Greece from east to west was blockaded by the forces of Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "e used. [ Ministerial cheers .] And force was used, and under the auspices of the right hon. Gentleman and the Member for Aberdeen and his colleagues upon that Bench, not excluding the right hon. Member for Montrose—[ cheers ]—the whole coast of Greece from east to west was blockaded by the forces of Europe. [ Cheers .] Europe did that for the preservation of peace and in the interests of mankind—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "prolonged cheering", "preceding_text": "upon that Bench, not excluding the right hon. Member for Montrose—[ cheers ]—the whole coast of Greece from east to west was blockaded by the forces of Europe. [ Cheers .] Europe did that for the preservation of peace and in the interests of mankind—[ cheers ]—and, Sir, what Europe did then, and what the right hon. Gentleman did then, we are justified, if occasion seems to demand it, in doing now—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ulations would feel that there was a disturbance of the status quo which required them, in as far as they are independent States, to mobilise their armies, to prepare for eventualities, and to occupy, it may be this or it may be that portion of the Turkish Empire; and, be it remembered, these are not States all arrayed in common accord against the Turkish Empire, they are rivals one with another. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "time like the present, we were to disturb the status quo , as the right hon. Gentleman desires us to disturb it, we should, without adding one tittle of freedom to Crete, imperil the whole peace of the East of Europe; and the peace of the East of Europe cannot be imperilled, as everyone knows, without imperilling the peace of even greater 1525 and more important portions of European civilisation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Loud cheers .", "preceding_text": "eman desires us to disturb it, we should, without adding one tittle of freedom to Crete, imperil the whole peace of the East of Europe; and the peace of the East of Europe cannot be imperilled, as everyone knows, without imperilling the peace of even greater 1525 and more important portions of European civilisation. [ Cheers .] I hope I have justified the course which the Government have pursued. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "mperilled, as everyone knows, without imperilling the peace of even greater 1525 and more important portions of European civilisation. [ Cheers .] I hope I have justified the course which the Government have pursued. [ Loud cheers .] I can assure the House that freedom and good government have no more earnest advocates in this House or in this country than the Members of Her Majesty's Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "erilling the peace of even greater 1525 and more important portions of European civilisation. [ Cheers .] I hope I have justified the course which the Government have pursued. [ Loud cheers .] I can assure the House that freedom and good government have no more earnest advocates in this House or in this country than the Members of Her Majesty's Government. [ Cheers .] We are advocates of freedom. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "use or in this country than the Members of Her Majesty's Government. [ Cheers .] We are advocates of freedom. [ Cries of \"Oh!\"] In the history of the world, Sir, freedom and peace have not always proved compatible. But at the present crisis, and with regard to the affairs now under the consideration of the House, we believe, and believe most firmly, that the cause of peace is the cause of freedom—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Prolonged cheering .", "preceding_text": ". The right hon. Gentleman, in his elaborate peroration this evening, brought in the parable, to which allusion has been more than once made, of the good Samaritan and the man who fell among thieves. Sir, the good Samaritan would not have been through all these 18 centuries held up as a model for admiration if, as an incidental result of his good action, he was going to add largely to his estate. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers and cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "tion if, as an incidental result of his good action, he was going to add largely to his estate. [ Prolonged cheering .] If it be true—and I doubt not that it is true—that the Greek public were animated by generous emotions, by generous sentiments, and by a generous policy in all that they have done, let them reflect that their object, as far as Crete is concerned, has now been absolutely attained—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ", and by a generous policy in all that they have done, let them reflect that their object, as far as Crete is concerned, has now been absolutely attained—[ cheers and cries of \"No!\"]—and that they lay themselves open to the suspicion by further action that they have not been animated by pure motives alone, but that there was an admixture of national ambition in the course which they have pursued. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Loud cheers .", "preceding_text": "rom the highest motives, they have taken up. May that be the policy which they adopt. In the meantime, the course which we have before us is a plain and simple course, and it is a course which we shall pursue for the benefit of Greece itself, for the benefit of Crete, for the benefit of East Europe, and, above all, for the benefit of the peace of Europe, which is the greatest interest of mankind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers and cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "rnment, that they are lovers of freedom and of peace. I cannot imagine any British Government which should be other than lovers of freedom and of peace. But we cannot forget that at this moment it is not at all impossible—some think that it is only too probable—that the effect of the policy which Her Majesty's Government are now pursuing will be to endanger peace, and that it has already done so. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " such one could avoid the feeling that the cause of peace is at this moment exposed to most serious risk and danger. Everyone who listened to the speech of my right hon. Friend who moved this Motion will agree that in that speech, and in all that has been stated from this Bench, we have endeavoured to avoid giving—and I hope that I shall continue to avoid giving—a party complexion to this Debate. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ironical laughter .", "preceding_text": ", and if there are aspects of the policy of the Government which we think imprudent and ill calculated to carry out the ends the Government have in view, that does not arise from party considerations but from 1527 our reading of the situation. The right hon. Gentleman secured the loud cheers of his friends behind him by a reference to the events of 1886. I am not going to dwell upon those events. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "ose events. [ Ironical laughter .] I chanced to be a Member of the Cabinet whose actions the right hon. Gentleman criticised. [The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY: \"Described.\"] Yes, but there was an innuendo. [The FIRST LORD of the TREASURY: \"You are quite right.\"] The coercive measures taken against Greece in 188G were taken under a totally different state of circumstances from those which now exist—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "on taken by us, which was very different from that to which I think Her Majesty's Government will have to resort if their views are insisted upon, I may remind him that no less a person than the Prime Minister has expressly said, in a dispatch now in the hands of hon. Gentlemen, that the circumstances in 189G were entirely different from the circumstances under which our Government acted in 1886. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Read on.\"", "preceding_text": "rnment acted in 1886. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The Austrian Government reminded Lord Salisbury of what had taken place ten years ago, and Lord Salisbury replied: \"The distinction between the two appears to me very marked;\" but the right hon. Gentleman now assumes, for the sake of his argument, that the circumstances of 1886 and 1897 are identical—a statement which Lord Salisbury has in advance repudiated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers .", "preceding_text": " and Lord Salisbury replied: \"The distinction between the two appears to me very marked;\" but the right hon. Gentleman now assumes, for the sake of his argument, that the circumstances of 1886 and 1897 are identical—a statement which Lord Salisbury has in advance repudiated. [An HON. MEMBER: \"Read on.\"] He says: \"If Greece were to make any aggression upon the independence or integrity of Turkey—\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ination were it 1528 not for the Concert of Europe, it is not explained how the Ottoman Government could have got its troops into Crete. It was not denied by the right hon. Gentleman that such is the position of Crete that were the Admirals agreed Turkey could not have landed, as she did in 1862, the large number of troops which would be required to pacify the whole of the interior of the island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hen you require us to evacuate Crete it is of no use to give us general principles or lines of policy. We cannot undertake to evacuate Crete or to retire from the enterprise we have entered upon until we know, not only the general principles and the lines of your policy, but the details,\" which the right hon. Gentleman rather complains of us tonight for asking Her Majesty's Government to give us. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear\"!", "preceding_text": "ment to give us. [\"Hear, hear!\"] This is a case in which the whole worth of the settlement to be arrived at will depend upon details. Therefore we have a full right to ask Her Majesty's Government for some further particulars, with regard to which Her Majesty's Government have not given us one glimpse, of the kind of autonomy, how far and how wide it is to be, which they propose to give to Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d Salisbury. The policy which was announced by Lord Salisbury as being carried out by the Powers was one of automony preceding coercion. Lord Salisbury—it may not be his fault—appears to have been baffled in carrying that policy out, because we are now told that the Greeks are required to evacuate Crete before they are told what is to be the scheme of autonomy which is to be conferred upon Crete. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " by the Concert of Europe. I will not go back to what the Under Secretary said, that these troops were very good unless their officers ordered them to be bad; but I would remind both him and the right hon. Gentleman 1530 the First Lord of the Treasury, that they have given us no details whatever, not even any general indications, of the way in which this force is to be disciplined and maintained. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tained. [\"Hear, hear!\"] A more extraordinary device was never heard of. Here you have got Turkish troops ordered not to obey their own Turkish masters. They are to be under a sort of Condominium , as my right hon. Friend said, and we do not know who is going to pay for them. I think we might fairly have been told at all events, that the Government have thought out fully this extraordinary device. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Oh, oh!\" and \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"] After all, in my judgment, the most important points in the Debate to which the attention of the Government should be given, are to be found in the speeches made, not on this side of the House, but on the other side, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin, the Member for North Armagh, and the Member for Belfast. It is well worth their while to take warning by those speeches. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "should be given, are to be found in the speeches made, not on this side of the House, but on the other side, by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin, the Member for North Armagh, and the Member for Belfast. It is well worth their while to take warning by those speeches. [\"Oh, oh!\" and \"Hear, hear!\"] My right hon Friend the Member for Bodmin, speaking, as he always does, with perfect freedom—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "on of Greece. I think my right hon. Friend the Member for West Monmouth used language which is very proper—language that any of us should use upon this question. My right hon. Friend warned the Government that they were walking into a pass which led them they knew not where, but which might lead them to ulterior action which would undoubtedly be condemned by the bulk of the people of this island. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ed the Government that they were walking into a pass which led them they knew not where, but which might lead them to ulterior action which would undoubtedly be condemned by the bulk of the people of this island. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I for my part shall be very careful not to use any language about Greece beyond the language of admiration for the services she has rendered to humanity and her own race. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "y right hon. Friend put it. We warn the Government of what was said by my right hon. Friend the Member for Bodmin, that they are apparently committing themselves to courses which may lead them into action which I am perfectly sure they will find even their own friends, their own general supporters in the country, look upon with grave doubt, and, in many cases, with profound and loud condemnation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " many cases, with profound and loud condemnation. [\"Hear, hear!\"] As to what may ultimately happen to Greece, it may be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeen has said, that the very first act that the first assembly chosen under your system of autonomy brings into operation will be to pronounce for annexation to the kingdom of Greece. That, in my judgment, would be a very happy consummation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "xation to the kingdom of Greece. That, in my judgment, would be a very happy consummation. [ Cheers .] It is the natural consummation, it is the consummation which ought to have taken place but for misguided policy on the part of Great Britain in 1828 and 1830, and if that end comes it will be the end which lovers of humanity and civilisation in those distracted parts would most earnestly desire. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t is the consummation which ought to have taken place but for misguided policy on the part of Great Britain in 1828 and 1830, and if that end comes it will be the end which lovers of humanity and civilisation in those distracted parts would most earnestly desire. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I think it will be agreed on the whole that we have avoided giving to this discussion anything like a party complexion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nity and civilisation in those distracted parts would most earnestly desire. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I think it will be agreed on the whole that we have avoided giving to this discussion anything like a party complexion. [\"Hear, hear!\"] We admit the difficulties in which the Government have been working, but we do not believe that they have 1532 taken the best way to meet and to solve those difficulties. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "e dangers they are incurring, and we have listened almost with pain to one or two of the speeches from the other side. The speech of the hon. Member for St. Albans was one, I am quite sure, that no Gentleman on the Front Bench can agree with. The hon. Member said that if you want to know the Greek character and worth, the true measure of Greek aims, you must look to the \"Stock Exchange Yearbook.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"No, no,\" and cheers", "preceding_text": "ims, you must look to the \"Stock Exchange Yearbook.\" [ Laughter .] Language of that kind was received with loud approval by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Whatever may be the true ancient Greek character or the modern Greek character, I do not believe any one opposite will deny that, whatever may take place in future, the action of Greece, even at the eleventh hour, has in fact promoted that settlement—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"No,\" and cheers .", "preceding_text": "oud approval by hon. Gentlemen opposite. Whatever may be the true ancient Greek character or the modern Greek character, I do not believe any one opposite will deny that, whatever may take place in future, the action of Greece, even at the eleventh hour, has in fact promoted that settlement—[\"No, no,\" and cheers ]—and the more satisfactory the settlement is the more credit would be due to Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "\"Oh, oh,\" and Ministerial cries of \"Divide!\"", "preceding_text": "lieve any one opposite will deny that, whatever may take place in future, the action of Greece, even at the eleventh hour, has in fact promoted that settlement—[\"No, no,\" and cheers ]—and the more satisfactory the settlement is the more credit would be due to Greece. [\"No,\" and cheers .] We are satisfied with the discussion that has taken place, and my right hon. friend will not divide the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/02", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/02/motion-for-adjournment", "section": "motion-for-adjournment", "cue_text": "Cheers and cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "eece. [\"No,\" and cheers .] We are satisfied with the discussion that has taken place, and my right hon. friend will not divide the House. [\"Oh, oh,\" and Ministerial cries of \"Divide!\"] § *SIR W. HARCOURT said it was not his intention, and he set out by indicating that it was not his desire, to take a Party division on the question. He 1533 asked the leave of the House to withdraw the Motion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "cheers .", "preceding_text": "ble of the exceeding gravity of the crisis in the affairs connected with Crete at this moment that even if I were disposed to make, which I am not, any attack on the Government, I certainly should refrain from it. I need hardly assure the noble Marquess that I have not the smallest desire in any way to embarrass the Government in the conduct of the most difficult affairs in which they are engaged—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "ess I have been able to read some of the important documents contained in it. There is only one to which I desire to advert, and that is the answer given by the noble Marquess to the communication of July 27, last year, from the Austro-Hungarian Government, and I think I shall have general concurrence when I say I believe that answer will have been universally read with the greatest satisfaction. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "r Powers; but I may assume that, to a very large extent at all events, they represent an agreement which has now been arrived at. At any rate, the statement contains the policy which Her Majesty's Government desired to pursue. One thing, happily, appears to be irrevocably decided by the Powers—namely, that in no circumstances shall Crete return under the direct domination of the Sultan of Turkey. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e solid basis which has been laid for whatever settlement may ultimately be arrived at; but, speaking for myself only—though I believe that there are not a few who agree with me—putting aside all feeling of sympathy with the Greeks, concerning which I shall say something presently, as a mere cold question of policy, it would have been wiser and safer to have joined Crete to the kingdom of Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers .", "preceding_text": "roops are not likely to be subject to much restraint. For these reasons, it seems to me that it is almost absolutely necessary that there should be organised a means of keeping order in the island before there is a withdrawal of the troops; and, further than that, it seems to me both policy and justice require that the withdrawal of the Turkish and Greek troops should practically be simultaneous. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "island. Any attempt on the part of the Greeks to infringe these orders will be repelled by the combined fleets. *THE PRIME MINISTER (The MARQUESS of SALISBURY) That is not correct. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY I ask myself what can be the meaning of the Greeks permitting troops— *THE PRIME MINISTER I think I shall save the noble Earl from unnecessary argument if I say that I never heard of the document. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "that they alone have forced the Powers to act with decision in this matter, and it is due to Greece really that Crete will be emancipated from Turkish rule. Otherwise months more might have passed of massacre and turmoil, and the result might have been as distant now as it is in regard to the unfortunate Armenians, for whom, in point of fact, nothing has been done. I say, all honour to the Greeks—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "law. No one can doubt that the invasion of Crete by Greek 1423 troops, Crete being a Turkish possession, was a distinct act of war, and one which the Turkish Government would have been entirely justified in treating as an act of war. I have heard it spoken of as a filibustering expedition; but if that be the case, there are few governments which have not been engaged in filibustering expeditions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "he Greeks deserve warm sympathy for what they have clone. But, my Lords, in circumstances so exceedingly grave and so critical, involving questions reaching so far, I certainly could not, as far as my humble voice goes, take upon myself the responsibility of offering any counsel to Greece at the present moment to take any step which might endanger her safety or prejudice her hopes for the future. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "e present moment to take any step which might endanger her safety or prejudice her hopes for the future. [ Cheers .] She has already done much for the freedom of her Hellenic countrymen in Crete, and I believe that it is not too sanguine to expect that, at no very distant date, although she may be again disappointed, as she was in 1829, Crete will be united with Greece under one Greek Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "sult. If I were to decide this question in the interests of Crete alone, without reference to any larger question or to the desire of any other Power, I should still say that it was a rash and hazardous, and, perhaps, an unjustifiable step to force Crete into a union with Greece at a moment when it is impossible that a sober and deliberate determination of the people can genuinely be ascertained. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ve gone on are to continue with only slow and general amelioration, or whether the whole of Europe is to be plunged into a cauldron of civil war, we say that the interests of vast masses of populations are superior to those of the few who appear in the forefront of the present crisis, and that it is our duty to maintain 1426 the existing state of things until we can see a safe and peaceful issue. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "st ask yourselves whether you have any sufficient and adequate reasons for supposing that the Cretans themselves desire or that they would be better for it; and you must further give your sympathies to those wider views which are in favour of the preservation of the paramount blessings of European peace which have weighed heavily with all the great nations in the decision to which they have come. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\" and a laugh", "preceding_text": "ained by the Powers. THE EARL OF KIMBERLEY I only asked how the Powers intended to maintain the police. *THE PRIME MINISTER That is a very different matter, and it is a reasonable request. A very learned person with whom I was discussing this matter yesterday informed me that two centuries ago, when the Turks took possession of the island, they found an army of 250,000 men necessary to keep order—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and laughter .", "preceding_text": "nt matter, and it is a reasonable request. A very learned person with whom I was discussing this matter yesterday informed me that two centuries ago, when the Turks took possession of the island, they found an army of 250,000 men necessary to keep order—[\"hear, hear!\" and a laugh ]—and therefore I am not certain that the bluejackets detailed by different vessels would be adequate for the purpose. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/02", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/02/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": "g against them as having needlessly disturbed the peace of Europe, and as having risked a general conflagration, and as having brought the sanctions and obligations of international law to a certain extent into contempt, and as having placed us in a crisis which, if she had had somewhat more self-control and somewhat more patience, we should have been able successfully and peacefully to surmount. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "clause the aid grant would be paid direct to that school. The Amendment, he contended, ought to be carried in the interests of the Voluntary Schools themselves, and of the necessitous schools, and, above all, in the interests of the children. § *MR. CARVELL WILLIAMS (Notts,) Mansfield said the further they travelled in the discussion on the clauses of the Bill the more discoveries they made. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "According to the amount they raised, they would share in the grant. § MR. J. W. LOGAN (Leicester, Harborough) rose to address the Committee, when § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY claimed to move: \"That the Question be now put.\" *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS withheld his assent, because he was of opinion that the Committee was prepared shortly to come to a decision without that Motion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS withheld his assent, because he was of opinion that the Committee was prepared shortly to come to a decision without that Motion. [ Opposition cries of \"Hear, hear!\"] § Debate resumed. § MR. LOGAN said he understood that the object of the Amendment was to induce the subscribers to Voluntary Schools to increase, or at least to continue, their subscriptions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "of Voluntary Schools at all, and therefore he could not support the Amendment. He looked forward to the time when the nation would decide that it was in its own best interests that it should provide all the money necessary for the education of the children of the country. *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS The last remark of the hon. Member is totally irrelevant to the question before the Committee. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Order, order!\"", "preceding_text": "t to the question before the Committee. [ Ministerial cries of \"Hear, hear!\"] § MR. LOGAN said he simply wished to point out that he could not support the Amendment, because one of its objects was to induce the subscribers to those schools to increase their subscriptions, and, as he had said, he looked forward to the day when the whole cost of education 1552 would be provided by the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "\"] MR. HERBERT ROBERTS (Denbighshire, W.) said he could not agree with the line of argument taken by the hon. Member for the Harborough Division, and heartily supported the Amendment. He did so on educational grounds, for he concurred with the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for Carnarvon that, if the Amendment were agreed to, it would act as an educational stimulus to the Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers and Opposition cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "ough Division, and heartily supported the Amendment. He did so on educational grounds, for he concurred with the opinion expressed by the hon. Member for Carnarvon that, if the Amendment were agreed to, it would act as an educational stimulus to the Voluntary Schools. [ Opposition cries of \"Hear, hear!\"] § MR. EDWARD CARSON (Dublin University) I claim to move: \"That the Question be now put.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": "st, No. 63.) § Question put accordingly, \"That those words be there inserted.\" § The Committee divided:—Ayes, 96; Noes, 296.—(Division List, No. 64.) § The announcement of the numbers was received with Ministerial laughter. MR. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet) asked what course he should pursue with regard to the fact that on the Division on the Closure he had voted in the wrong Lobby. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter .", "preceding_text": " regard to the fact that on the Division on the Closure he had voted in the wrong Lobby. [ Laughter .] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS said the right hon. Gentleman should have called attention to the matter after the Division referred to. At present there was no course open to him; but on the occasion the only thing to do under the circumstances was to take measures to avoid passing the Tellers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "d they were to remain sectarian. If he followed the dictates of his own judgment and conscience he would not give such schools a single penny. He submitted that no case had been made out for the increase on the Bill of last year. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY, opposing the Amendment, said that in his judgment 5s. was not at all too much. He might go farther and say that it was too little. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "cessitous schools, an equal sum ought to be given to Board Schools all round, which might also be pooled in the same manner, for the benefit of necessitous Board Schools. He thought that if the Government were to impose conditions in relation to this grant which might be thought reasonable by a large number of hon. Members on both sides of the House, there could be no objection to this 5s. grant. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"£600,000.\"", "preceding_text": "therto had, that they were prepared to meet the wishes of the Opposition, that they would attach reasonable conditions to the grant, he should feel himself bound to vote for the Amendment. As matters stood at present, he could not help regarding this 5s. grant as an additional endowment of the Church of England. 1555 Under this proposal the Church of England would receive some £400,000 per annum. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er head. § *SIR J. PEASE said that of course he should bow to the ruling of the right hon. Gentleman in the Chair. Unless the Government gave the Committee some satisfactory assurance as to the conditions to be attached to this grant, he should certainly vote for the Amendment, because he was unwilling to endow the Church of England unconditionally 1556 with the largo sum he had referred to. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "bly hindering a grant of a larger sum From the Exchequer to other schools. § *MR. EDWARD STRACHEY (Somerset, S.) thought the Welsh Members were justified in the Amendment, not only as Welsh Members, but as Radicals, and that English Radicals would 1\"; right in supporting them against any proposal to give more money to Voluntary Schools, unless it were accompanied by adequate popular control. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Voluntary Schools, unless it were accompanied by adequate popular control. [\"Hear, hear!\"] In a large number of those schools there was a kind of popular control in the fact that there was a large body of subscribers; but the proposals of the Government would have the direct effect of reducing the number of subscribers, and would increase the danger of having more one man schools in the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "se he objected to giving more money to Voluntary Schools, which he believed had their place and work in the Education system side by side with Board Schools, but because he held that if more money was given to them there must at the same time be some local control. So long as the Government opposed any form of local control, he should oppose any further grant of public money to Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "an his hon. Friends, for this Amendment, for they had given absolutely no reason whatever for fixing the grant at 5s. The First Lord of the Treasury had not said a single word in justification of it. He did not for one moment complain that the sum was too great. He had no wish to deal with Voluntary Schools in a niggardly spirit, but he did hope that there would be some reciprocity in this matter—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "fication of it. He did not for one moment complain that the sum was too great. He had no wish to deal with Voluntary Schools in a niggardly spirit, but he did hope that there would be some reciprocity in this matter—[\"hear, hear!\"]—and that when other than Voluntary Schools were dealt with, the Government would deal with them in as liberal a manner as they were now dealing with Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "000. He would remind the Committee that the late Archbishop of Canterbury, at the annual meeting of the National Society last year, declared that a. grant of 4s. was quite enough. Why did not the Government act on the view of the late Archbishop? It had been suggested that they would get some small concessions by-and-by from the Government, but he did not entertain any such illusory hope himself. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "ironical laughter", "preceding_text": "on that appealed to the people of the country. His hon. Friends would not move the Amendments they did, which the right hon. Gentlemen said were not worth consideration, unless they felt that those who sent them there had sympathy with their views. He well knew that the Voluntary Schools needed this help, and more than this; but he complained of the way in which this Bill was being forced through—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Cheers .", "preceding_text": " by chance? § MR. SYDNEY BUXTON thought that some reply should be given by the Government to the question as to what was the basis upon which 5s. had been fixed instead of 4s., and why £620,000 was stated to be needed for necessitous Voluntary Schools. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I can add nothing to the speech I have already made. The hon. Member was not in the House when I spoke. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "Opposition cries of \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "List, No. 6G.) § And, it being Half-past Five of the clock, the CHAIRMAN of WATS and MEANS proceeded to interrupt the business. § Whereupon, § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY claimed to move, \"That the Question 'That the words of the Clause down to the word\" to,\" in line 10—(\" The Aid Grant shall be distributed by the Education Department to \")—stand part of the Clause' be now put.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " be distributed by the Education Department to \")—stand part of the Clause' be now put.\" [ Opposition cries of \"Oh, oh!\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS It is only right that, I should say, in accepting this Motion, that I have satisfied myself that if it should be carried it would not cut out a single Amendment of any substance. Nearly three pages of the Amendments that follow are out of order. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/03", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/03/voluntary-schools-bill", "section": "voluntary-schools-bill", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t should be carried it would not cut out a single Amendment of any substance. Nearly three pages of the Amendments that follow are out of order. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I think it is only due to the Committee that I should give my reason for accepting the motion. These Amendments are for the most part excluded by the ruling of Mr. Speaker on the notices of Motion for Instructions on going into Committee. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/midland-and-great-northern-railways", "section": "midland-and-great-northern-railways", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ith, should have ample notice of the intention. The Chairman of Committees on that occasion stated that the promoters denied that these were common lands. He did not propose to go into that question to-day. He would only say that he thought that if the Chairman of Committees had had in his possession the evidence which he (Mr. Foster) possessed he would not have ventured to make such a statement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/midland-and-great-northern-railways", "section": "midland-and-great-northern-railways", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "he inhabitants and by visitors. They also furnished the only available ground at Lowestoft for the fishermen to dry their nets, and for this purpose they had been used from time immemorial. The more important to remember for Lowestoft in respect to the magnitude of its fishing industry, was second only to Great Grimsby, and in respect to the value of the fish brought in was second only to London. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/midland-and-great-northern-railways", "section": "midland-and-great-northern-railways", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "sided in the neighbourhood, subscribed £750 towards the purchase money on the understanding that these Denes should be reserved to the use of the public for ever. The Local Government Board, after an inquiry, sanctioned a loan to enable the purchase to be completed, and one of the grounds on which that loan Was sanctioned were that the Denes should be purchased for the use of the public for ever. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/midland-and-great-northern-railways", "section": "midland-and-great-northern-railways", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ll at this stage, and that the people of Lowestoft would not be put to the expense of opposing the Bill in Committee. In view of the fact that the double line of the Great Eastern was almost sure to be sanctioned, he thought it possible that even if the Bill now under discussion were passed, the line it was to authorise would not be made, for how could a single line compete against a double line? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/midland-and-great-northern-railways", "section": "midland-and-great-northern-railways", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rhaps modify the action of the hon. Member if he stated that if the Bill were read a Second time he would be prepared to support an Instruction which stood in the name of the Member for East Norfolk (Mr. Price) to the following effect:— That it be an instruction to the Committee that they have power to inquire and report whether any commons or common lands are proposed to be taken under the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/new-forest-commoners-pigs", "section": "new-forest-commoners-pigs", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Order!\" and laughter.", "preceding_text": "t; SIR J. BRUNNER Can the right hon. Gentleman assure me that this is not a new move on the part of a \"new broom?\" These fines have not been inflicted for a long time. § MR. HANBURY There has been tin new departure whatever. It is simply following an old custom. § MR. SCOTT-MONTAGU (Hants,) New Forest Arising out of this, I can assure the hon. Baronet that these questions are dealt with—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "erable sufferings on the part of others not actually brought to death, he will take immediate steps to make more effective the work of famine relief? § LORD GEORGE HAMILTON The Question of the hon. Gentleman implies that the system of famine relief now in operation in India is ineffective and insufficient. No evidence, either official or unofficial, has reached me justifying this allegation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/indian-famine", "section": "indian-famine", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " distress, and the whole administrative and financial resources of the Government are behind them. A calamity so intense and widespread as that now afflicting India cannot be repelled without casualties and great privation; but never before in a scarcity of these dimensions have the general operations against famine been so successful as those being now carried on by Lord Elgin and his coadjutors."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "section": "evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "cue_text": "cries of. \"Oh\"!", "preceding_text": " that the Rev. Mr. O'Hara was on the platform with Mr. O'Brien on the occasion referred to, and addressed the meeting; but, save for the report in the Freeman's Journal newspaper, we have no evidence that he used the language attributed to him. The Government have given directions that a shorthand writer should in future attend any meetings of a similar character that may be held in this district—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "section": "evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "cue_text": "Ironical Irish cheers.", "preceding_text": "Freeman's Journal newspaper, we have no evidence that he used the language attributed to him. The Government have given directions that a shorthand writer should in future attend any meetings of a similar character that may be held in this district—[ cries of. \"Oh\"!]—and, should sufficient evidence be forthcoming, the Government will not hesitate to enforce the law against any person violating it."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "section": "evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "cue_text": "Ironical Irish cheers.", "preceding_text": "on of evicted farms, on one of which the meeting was held, have been boycotted and refused provisions in the locality. The facts are also substantially as stated in the second and third paragraphs. Police protection of the most ample character is being given to the boycotted persons, and all further steps that may appear necessary will be taken to prevent and punish injury and outrage of any kind."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "section": "evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "cue_text": "Ministerial laughter.", "preceding_text": " not think it has happened since I have had the honour of holding my present office. § MR JOHN DILLON (Mayo, E.) Will the right hon. Gentleman kindly inform us, in connection with the sending of shorthand writers to meetings in Ireland, whether the abominable system is to be reintroduced of surrounding them in the midst of the meetings with bodies of police with deadly weapons in their hands?"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "section": "evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "y weapons in their hands?[ Ministerial laughter. ] § MR. GERALD BALFOUR It is necessary that a shorthand writer sent to attend a meeting should receive adequate protection. § MR. T. M. HEALY (Louth, N.) With reference to the statement that no person was denounced by name in the speech, I should like to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether I was not very largely denounced in that speech? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "section": "evicted-falms-meeting-at-cahir", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "ct; MR. DILLON As the practice is now being recognised of sending shorthand writers to meetings in Ireland, I beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he will give us any assurance that they will not be forced into the middle of the crowd surrounded by police? § MR. GERALD BALFOUR Whatever provisions may be necessary to enable the shorthand writer to take his notes will of course he made. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Oh, oh!\" and laughter.", "preceding_text": " of the Turkish and Greek Governments to the Notes of the Great Powers? MR. CURZON The reply of the Porte was received on the 7th instant, and that of the Greek Government this morning. The substance of both replies has appeared in the newspapers. § SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT Can the right hon. Gentleman give us generally a summary of the reply of the Porte? I have not seen it in the newspapers."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "e \"temporary occupation of the Island of Crete by Turkish soldiers,\" represents accurately the policy of the Powers. Of course we are fully alive to the, necessity of securing that the new gendarmerie shall be a well-ordered and disciplined force. § MR. BAYLEY And well paid? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY You cannot have a well-ordered and disciplined force, unless they are well paid. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ie shall be a well-ordered and disciplined force. § MR. BAYLEY And well paid? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY You cannot have a well-ordered and disciplined force, unless they are well paid. [ Laughter. ] § MR. MACNEILL I wish to ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have given him private notice, and of which I have taken the precaution to keep a copy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "cheer", "preceding_text": "ell-ordered and disciplined force, unless they are well paid. [ Laughter. ] § MR. MACNEILL I wish to ask the Under Secretary for Foreign Affairs a Question of which I have given him private notice, and of which I have taken the precaution to keep a copy. [ Laughter. ]I wish to ask whether Lord 301 Salisbury will give an assurance analogous to that given yesterday by the French Prime Minister—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheer.", "preceding_text": "private notice, and of which I have taken the precaution to keep a copy. [ Laughter. ]I wish to ask whether Lord 301 Salisbury will give an assurance analogous to that given yesterday by the French Prime Minister—[ cheer ]—that no action of a hostile or coercive character will be taken against Greece by the Naval or Military forces of the Crown without the full approval of the Imperial Parliament?"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "n against Greece by the Naval or Military forces of the Crown without the full approval of the Imperial Parliament?[ Cheer. ] MR. CURZON With all respect to the hon. Gentleman and to the House, I must hold myself excused from answering questions of which hon. Gentlemen affect to give private notice, although their private notice seldom or never reaches me before I have taken my seat on this Bench."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "n without the full approval of the Imperial Parliament?[ Cheer. ] MR. CURZON With all respect to the hon. Gentleman and to the House, I must hold myself excused from answering questions of which hon. Gentlemen affect to give private notice, although their private notice seldom or never reaches me before I have taken my seat on this Bench.[ Cheers. ] Private notice ought also to be adequate notice."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": ".[ Cheers. ] § MR. MACNEILL As a matter of explanation, I may say that I sent the notice before one o'clock to the right hon. Gentleman. Would it be for his convenience if I put the Question down for Thursday? As it is it question of urgency, will he communicate with Lord Salisbury? MR. CURZON The hon. Gentleman can put down any question he pleases. It is not within my province to advise him."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "enience if I put the Question down for Thursday? As it is it question of urgency, will he communicate with Lord Salisbury? MR. CURZON The hon. Gentleman can put down any question he pleases. It is not within my province to advise him.[ Cheers. ] § MR. H. LABOUCHERE (Northampton) Will the First Lord of the Treasury answer the Question, of which I have not been able to give him private notice? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " of the Treasury answer the Question, of which I have not been able to give him private notice? [ Laughter. ] It is whether he has seen a statement by M. Méline, the French Prime Minister, in the Chamber yesterday, that he will communicate to the Chamber the intentions of the Powers on Wednesday or Thursday; and whether we can hope for a similar communication at the same time in this House?"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "mmunicate to the Chamber the intentions of the Powers on Wednesday or Thursday; and whether we can hope for a similar communication at the same time in this House?[ Cheers. ] § SIR W. HARCOURT I quite understand the difficulty which the Government may have in answering the Question at this moment; but I propose myself to ask a question of the Government on the Motion for Adjournment to-night."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "justice on one large body of subscribers—namely, the Board School ratepayers—under this Bill; they, wider this clause, were proposing a still further injustice on subscribers to the schools to which money was proposed to be given under the Bill. It seemed as though the taxpayers were going to be plundered according to the rule of might, instead of being dealt with according, to the rule of right. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" from the Opposition Benches.", "preceding_text": "gnised the necessity for compulsory education, and that it was our duty to take care that every child should be properly taught. In these altered circumstances he could not see why we should keep up the idea that charitable subscriptions should remain part and parcel of our educational system. He himself thought that the 314 State should pay the whole cost of the secular education of the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ts, and such schools required as just as much as, if not more than the Roman Catholic schools did. In his opinion, therefore, the keeping up I If the system of voluntary subscriptions as a charitable element of education was altogether wrong, and was indeed injurious to the cause of education. He, however could not support the Amendment, which appeared to him to be altogether wrong ill principle. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "ate grant any want of voluntary zeal.… If the result 317 of the rate-supported schools were less voluntary zeal, it was no part of the State to supply the deficiency. For the last 40 years the whole contention of the friends of Voluntary Schools had been that the only claim they had upon the management of their schools was that they supplied a large part of the funds for their maintenance. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "lf agreed to in 1870. Not only that, there were at least half a dozen Members of the Government who were foremost in their opposition to the Act of 1870, and the present First lord of the Admiralty went so far as to raise a Debate on the Third Reading and declared his intention to divide the House, which lie did, as a protest against any more grants being given to schools not under public control."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lemen there was only one or perhaps two who had been faithful to those pledges. He would like to know how it was that When the Government were anxious to render great service to Voluntary Schools they quoted the views of the elergy, but when they were asked to do anything of this sort, they passed them by. No man had been more consistent on this question than the present Archbishop of Canterbury. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "very point so recently as June 9 of last year:— Churchmen often urge that they have to pay school subscriptions besides, and ask why they should bear this extra burden. And the answer is that it is the price of keening the invaluable privilege of appointing the teachers without any interference. In no other way could they have kept this privilege, and in no other way can they permanently keep it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nt refused to consider this Amendment in any shape or form. There was no other way of maintaining voluntary subscriptions except by fixing some statutory limit. Unless that was done they might be quite sure that these grants instead of going to increase the efficiency of the 318 schools would go to relieve voluntary subscriptions, and the last state of these schools would be worse than the first. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " was done they might be quite sure that these grants instead of going to increase the efficiency of the 318 schools would go to relieve voluntary subscriptions, and the last state of these schools would be worse than the first. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Voluntary subscriptions had been steadily diminishing from year to year since 1876, and they had been, what was worse, much more fictitious than they were. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Gentleman that his remarks were hardly relvant to the Amendment. § MR. MUNDELLA Said he was only referring to it in order to show how necessary it was that the subscriptions should be kept up, because if these schools were not efficient and such a low standard continued, they would be giving four millions of money to the continuance of a State of things which was distressful to the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "e entitled to take that into account. § SIR FRANK LOCKWOOD (York) had hoped that the hon. and learned Member would melee some attempt to define the meaning of the words \"due regard being had to the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions.\" But the hon. and learned Member had contented himself with reading out the words. The Committee, however, did not want lessons in reading or pronunciation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "g had to the maintenance of voluntary subscriptions.\" But the hon. and learned Member had contented himself with reading out the words. The Committee, however, did not want lessons in reading or pronunciation. [ Laughter. ]What they did want to hear was the opinion of the. Law Officers of the Crown as to the way in which the Law Courts would interpret these words. The oracles, however, were dumb. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er elsewhere read such nonsense as they found in Acts of Parliament. What the Opposition were contending for was the maintenance of subscriptions at their present level. That was said by the Government to be the principle of the Bill, but there was nothing in the Measure to insure that that principle would be adhered to. This Amendment, like all its predecessors, had been met by a blank negative. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " the Measure to insure that that principle would be adhered to. This Amendment, like all its predecessors, had been met by a blank negative. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He remembered the sufferings of the present Attorney General when a Bill for the reform of Irish municipal government passed through the Grand Committee on taw without amendment. He should never 320 forget his hon. and learned Friend's horror—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": "IR W. HART DIKE (Kent, Dartford) said it was true that on the Second Reading he had argued that it would be well to proceed by adopting the method of average. But he had since reconsidered the point, and had come to the conclusion that there would be great difficulties in carrying out any such plan as the Amendment proposed. He was not ashamed to say that he had changed his opinion upon the point."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "essure to bear in the case of any school where the subscriptions were not adequate. It was constantly being urged that subscriptions were dwindling year by year, and that the actual subscriptions paid per child were not the same to-day as in 1870. But hon. Members should take the gross amount paid. The gross sum paid by subscribers to Voluntary Schools in 1875 was£673,000; in 1895 it was £834,000."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "ular teacher, and pay inure liberally in aid of our educational system. That appeared to be a true statement of the effect of the attitude of the State towards voluntary subscribers, and when they had regard to the poverty of many of the subscribers and the immense wealth of the State, it was not merely unjust in itself, but also in the highest degree shameful to the country which carried it out. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "being held to the ransom of the State. But it had always been accounted a work of piety to contribute to the ransom of a captive. It was far better that subscribers should go on for a little time longer suffering the injustices they endured than that the schools and the religious education dependent upon them should run any danger whatever, and therefore he proposed to vote against the Amendment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "the opinion that the provision in the Bill could be used for the benefit of voluntary subscribers or that it ought to be so used. He did not think it ought to be so used, because that would endanger the interests of the schools, and he did not think it could be so used, because the existing pressure was so great that, with all the help the schools would get they would have more than enough to do. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er said denominational schools would cease to exist; I said Voluntary Schools. § LORD HUGH CECIL agreed it was true Voluntary Schools would cease to exist if voluntary support were withdrawn, though that was not a matter which any Churchman would regard with any regret whatever. They had more than enough to do with their money without subsidising the State to pay its educational expenditure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "hools would cease to exist if voluntary support were withdrawn, though that was not a matter which any Churchman would regard with any regret whatever. They had more than enough to do with their money without subsidising the State to pay its educational expenditure. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He should rejoice if the voluntary system came to an end at once, so long as the denominational system was preserved."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "th their money without subsidising the State to pay its educational expenditure. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He should rejoice if the voluntary system came to an end at once, so long as the denominational system was preserved.[ Opposition cheers. ] He was confident they were not very far off that result, and he acquiesced, therefore, all the more cheerfully in the decision the Committee was bound to come to. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e subscriber to Voluntary Schools. In his own case he was a supporter of nine Voluntary Schools, and when the time arrived for the appropriation of the money in this Bill, he would be a claimant for the aid grant of 5s. per child, or (in view of the rejection of the Amendment for the exclusion of the word \"necessitous\" 10s. per child, which was the probable amount per child provided by this Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "luntary subscription, say, 10 or per cent. It was because this Amendment would have the effect of preventing him and others from having the power to reduce such voluntary subscription, excepting at the risk of losing the aid grant, that he would support the Amendment. The clause, as it stood, was vague and ineffective, and he hoped the Government would see their way to make it clear and definite. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "moved to insert the words, \"in 335 which no charge for school fees is made.\" He will remember that I several times pointed out it was not the proper place to discuss the Amendment, or, indeed, to move it. What the hon. Member intended was to move it on the Second sub-section, but as he moved it on, the first sub-section and took a division the Committee are precluded from re-opening the question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "dment is intended to provide an alternative to the scheme of the Government, it is quite clear the Government are entitled to have their scheme placed before the Committee first. § MR. SAMUEL EVANS There are several Amendments down in my name before we come to— THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS Order, order! It is extremely unusual to cross-examine the Chairman in the way that is now being done."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "cheme placed before the Committee first. § MR. SAMUEL EVANS There are several Amendments down in my name before we come to— THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS Order, order! It is extremely unusual to cross-examine the Chairman in the way that is now being done.[ Ministerial cheers. ]I think it will not be my duty to reply any further. I may say, however, that I have taken a great deal of trouble—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "AND MEANS Order, order! It is extremely unusual to cross-examine the Chairman in the way that is now being done.[ Ministerial cheers. ]I think it will not be my duty to reply any further. I may say, however, that I have taken a great deal of trouble—[\"hear, hear! \"]—to understand the Amendments, and I do not think it would conduce to the order of business if I were cross-examined as to my reasons."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Why not?\"", "preceding_text": " the same amount, with the result that they would be putting unnecessary money into the southern lap, while the north would have to be satisfied with its dole of 5s. per head. Again, the Roman Catholic schools were almost entirely in School Board areas, and in their case it was a question of bonâ fide conscience in every instance, while the same could not be said for the Church of England. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ulfil the homely duties of a buffer. He did not think they ought to throw the whole responsibility of discriminating between the needs of this large number of schools either on the Department itself or its inspectors. Personally, he confessed a preference for a proposal such as that which was included in the Bill of last year for a local authority between the Education Department and the schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ". Personally, he confessed a preference for a proposal such as that which was included in the Bill of last year for a local authority between the Education Department and the schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Hon. Gentlemen might cheer that observation now, but it was due to their vehement opposition to the principle of the Bill of last year that there was no longer the option of having a local authority. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "accounts by managers would tend to check any abuses that exist; and he had very little doubt that, if the aid grant were properly administered through the associations, it would stimulate, rather that discourage, subscriptions, would encourage collective action where at present action was isolated, and would strengthen ill future that voluntary system he desired to see continuous and flourishing. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"No !\"", "preceding_text": ", they would act in secret, they would not regard local opinion, but would be the instruments of a gigantic sacerdotal organisation to carry out a policy which one of his clerical friends had rightly characterised as a deliberate attempt to unProtestantise the English people, and place the control of the education of the children under the absolute power of the extremists of the High Church Party."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Section 5.\"", "preceding_text": " bodies. As soon as it was understood that these associations could not interfere with local management, and were only consultative bodies, all objection to these proposals would be done away with. As to compulsion, surely these bodies could not be called compulsory in the ordinary sense of the term. There was no compulsion whatever exercised on any school to enter into any of these associations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ompulsory in the ordinary sense of the term. There was no compulsion whatever exercised on any school to enter into any of these associations. [An HON. MEMBER: \"Section 5.\"] Section 5 said that if a particular school acted unreasonably in not entering into a federation or association it might lose the benefit of the 5s. grant. But was it compulsion because they were asked not to act unreasonably? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "onmouthshire, W.) We have now reached a portion of the Bill which I confess has most interested me, and has filled me with greater curiosity than any other part of the Measure. I had hoped for assistance in regard to it subject on which I feel myself entirely uninformed, from the able speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, but I regret to say he has given me very little light indeed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": " the able speech of the hon. Gentleman who has just sat down, but I regret to say he has given me very little light indeed. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He has told me a great many things that these voluntary associations are not to do, but he has not explained to me, at all events in full, what they are going to do. First of all he says there is no compulsion. We do not mean to say that there is any blockade—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "e voluntary associations are not to do, but he has not explained to me, at all events in full, what they are going to do. First of all he says there is no compulsion. We do not mean to say that there is any blockade—[ Laughter ]—or anything of that sort about the Measure; but we have all read about auri sacra fames —that famine which compels people to do it great many things which are better left "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "bject of these associations is to distribute a large sum of money, he believes there will be very little difficulty about that. I can conceive of associations, having common objects, getting on very well together. But what I want to know is whether the object for which these gentlemen will meet is a common object upon which they are all agreed. I should think it is exactly the reverse of the case."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": "l together. But what I want to know is whether the object for which these gentlemen will meet is a common object upon which they are all agreed. I should think it is exactly the reverse of the case.[ Cheers. ] The gentlemen who meet will, each of them, have as his object the getting as touch of this money as he can for his own objects and allowing as little as possible of it to go to any one else."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ng as touch of this money as he can for his own objects and allowing as little as possible of it to go to any one else.[ Laughter and cheers. ]That, I say, will be the main effort of these voluntary associations. 351 First of all, they are going to fight for this money. It will be like the battle we read of in our childish days of \"The lion and the unicorn fighting for the crown\"—the silver crown—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers and laughter.", "preceding_text": "se voluntary associations. 351 First of all, they are going to fight for this money. It will be like the battle we read of in our childish days of \"The lion and the unicorn fighting for the crown\"—the silver crown—[ laughter ]—and whether the lion or the unicorn will beat the other \"all round the town\" will be the question which will have to be decided in the arena of these voluntary associations."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "oured to picture to myself what these voluntary associations will do when they are gathered together. I cannot really expect any great light upon the matter either from the First Lord of the Treasury or from the Solicitor General, because they have no practical experience of what I may call English school life. They come from a country which is notoriously indifferent to pecuniary considerations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ord of the Treasury or from the Solicitor General, because they have no practical experience of what I may call English school life. They come from a country which is notoriously indifferent to pecuniary considerations. [ Laughter. ] I am not certain that the question whether one man or one school was to get more or less money than another would ever influence the disinterested soul of Scotchman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "hey have no practical experience of what I may call English school life. They come from a country which is notoriously indifferent to pecuniary considerations. [ Laughter. ] I am not certain that the question whether one man or one school was to get more or less money than another would ever influence the disinterested soul of Scotchman. [ Laughter. ] But in England we are not all so constituted. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": ". [ Laughter. ] But in England we are not all so constituted. [ Laughter. ] Then what is it that these associations will do when they are gathered together? We have heard from that rare authority the Vice President of the Council that he thinks population of a million would be the most convenient unit for an association. I do not know how much \"parson-power\" a population of a million would yield. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "er district £10,000, and in the huge district which the First Lord represents it might be £50,000. Now I can assure the right hon. Gentleman that from my experience of English parsons, when they have got £20,000 or £50,000 to scramble for, there will be differences of opinion among 352 them as to how much each should acquire. Even the rectors and even the archdeacons are human. I do not go higher—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers and laughter.", "preceding_text": " And there will be managers more ecclesiastically minded, perhaps, even than the clergy themselves. What would be the first operation which would occur in this voluntary association? As I understand, the clergymen would not have any pecuniary interest in the matter, because, as the right hon. Gentleman told us last night, the clergy are not to subscribe to anything except the Thirty-nine Articles."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " What would be the first operation which would occur in this voluntary association? As I understand, the clergymen would not have any pecuniary interest in the matter, because, as the right hon. Gentleman told us last night, the clergy are not to subscribe to anything except the Thirty-nine Articles.[ Cheers and laughter. ] That is to be their spiritual contribution to the denominational schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": " is to be their spiritual contribution to the denominational schools. [ Laughter. ] But the association being met, I want the right hon. Gentleman to explain to us exactly its practical operation, because all this was passed over by the hon. and learned Member for Stroud. The Amendment is a very proper one to raise this question, because I believe that the word we are discussing is the word \"if.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "troud. The Amendment is a very proper one to raise this question, because I believe that the word we are discussing is the word \"if.\" [ Laughter and cheers. ] If these managers from this million of population are gathered together, what is the first thing they will do? It is quite plain that the parson of Whiteacre will come forward and say, \"Here is £20,000. What am I to have? I am necessitous.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Renewed laughter.", "preceding_text": "question, because I believe that the word we are discussing is the word \"if.\" [ Laughter and cheers. ] If these managers from this million of population are gathered together, what is the first thing they will do? It is quite plain that the parson of Whiteacre will come forward and say, \"Here is £20,000. What am I to have? I am necessitous.\" [ Laughter. ] Of course, he will say that first of all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "parson taming all the parsons present, and I ought to have the largest sum. Five shillings per child is nothing. I ought to have 15s., 20s., or 25s. per head of the scholars. I have got, it is true, a great landowner in my neighbourhood. But he has large mortgages; he is subject to agricultural distress; and he gives only £5 to the school.\" And what will the other few hundred managers say to him? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": "he has large mortgages; he is subject to agricultural distress; and he gives only £5 to the school.\" And what will the other few hundred managers say to him? [Cheers.] They will say, If this parson gets 20s., what will be left for us? The fund will be diminished so greatly.\" Therefore, an amendment will be proposed—an amendment that the words \"twenty shillings\" do not stand part of the Resolution."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t will be proposed—an amendment that the words \"twenty shillings\" do not stand part of the Resolution.[ Laughter and cheers. ] In fact, everyone will propose an amendment cutting down this 20s. It will be in the interests of everyone present. Even the managers of Voluntary Schools, not 353 from sordid motives, but from denominational zeal, will desire to get the largest sum for their own schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Much laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": "otives, but from denominational zeal, will desire to get the largest sum for their own schools. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Each man will find it necessary to make his own case good. Another man will claim 20s., or even more, and the others will turn upon him and say, \"You are very well off. You have not a necessitous peer as the owner of the land in your parish; you have a prosperous and munificent brewer.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": " man will find it necessary to make his own case good. Another man will claim 20s., or even more, and the others will turn upon him and say, \"You are very well off. You have not a necessitous peer as the owner of the land in your parish; you have a prosperous and munificent brewer.\" [ Much laughter and cheers. ] \"He gives you £50, and as he becomes more prosperous he becomes more denominational.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " not a necessitous peer as the owner of the land in your parish; you have a prosperous and munificent brewer.\" [ Much laughter and cheers. ] \"He gives you £50, and as he becomes more prosperous he becomes more denominational.\" [ Laughter and cheers. ] \"He is a great subscriber, and we cannot give you 20s. You are the happy man who owns the brewer, and we are thrown back on the necessitious peer.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "er.\" [ Much laughter and cheers. ] \"He gives you £50, and as he becomes more prosperous he becomes more denominational.\" [ Laughter and cheers. ] \"He is a great subscriber, and we cannot give you 20s. You are the happy man who owns the brewer, and we are thrown back on the necessitious peer.\" [ Laughter. ] This is the sort of discussion which will be the foundation of the scheme of the Government—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "rosperous he becomes more denominational.\" [ Laughter and cheers. ] \"He is a great subscriber, and we cannot give you 20s. You are the happy man who owns the brewer, and we are thrown back on the necessitious peer.\" [ Laughter. ] This is the sort of discussion which will be the foundation of the scheme of the Government—[ cheers ]—which is to advise the Vice President of the Committee of Council. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "be the foundation of the scheme of the Government—[ cheers ]—which is to advise the Vice President of the Committee of Council. [ Laughter. ] This is the sagacious scheme Of distribution propounded by the Government. It is it very ingenious scheme, until you come to test it by the facts, which everyone who has real acquaintance with the subject knows must be the practical operation of this scheme."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "he Vice President of the Committee of Council. [ Laughter. ] This is the sagacious scheme Of distribution propounded by the Government. It is it very ingenious scheme, until you come to test it by the facts, which everyone who has real acquaintance with the subject knows must be the practical operation of this scheme.[ Cheers. ] I should like to know where this extraordinary scheme had its origin."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers", "preceding_text": "l you come to test it by the facts, which everyone who has real acquaintance with the subject knows must be the practical operation of this scheme.[ Cheers. ] I should like to know where this extraordinary scheme had its origin.[ Cheers. ] Tell me where is fancy bred— Or in the heart, or in the head? I think this scheme must have been bred in the heart. I am sure it has not been bred in the head. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "f this scheme.[ Cheers. ] I should like to know where this extraordinary scheme had its origin.[ Cheers. ] Tell me where is fancy bred— Or in the heart, or in the head? I think this scheme must have been bred in the heart. I am sure it has not been bred in the head. [ Laughter and cheers ] I cannot think that the Vice President of the Council will rise and say that he was the author of this plan. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "sustain that claim. And he will stand in the presence of his sworn foes, whose interest it will be to cut down the claim as far as possible. Then there come in the people better off; and they are to bring their 5s. into hotch-patch. But they will feel, every one of them, that they ought to have that 5s., or more. I never heard of any manager who did not think he wanted all the money he could get. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": "s. into hotch-patch. But they will feel, every one of them, that they ought to have that 5s., or more. I never heard of any manager who did not think he wanted all the money he could get. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The wealthiest school 354 will want its 5s.; and the whole of this congregation will be like what one has seen sometimes in a flock of rooks, where the whole flock is combined against a sick rook."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "een what happens, too often, among relations when a wealthy relative had died. It does not produce domestic harmony always, but to gather together an enormous unnumbered body of ecclesiastics from a population of a million, and to set down before them £50,000 to be scrambled for is the most extraordinary scheme for the harmonious distribution of public money among volunteers I have ever heard of. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "opulation of a million, and to set down before them £50,000 to be scrambled for is the most extraordinary scheme for the harmonious distribution of public money among volunteers I have ever heard of. [\"Hear, hear!\"] And yet this is the project of what are called voluntary associations. I am afraid that when the discussion is over there will be a good deal that is not voluntary in the transaction. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "] And yet this is the project of what are called voluntary associations. I am afraid that when the discussion is over there will be a good deal that is not voluntary in the transaction. [ Laughter. ] And before they come to their decision. I think there must be at least one division upon each school, with many amendments. Whether they will use the closure as freely as it is employed in this House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "hey come to their decision. I think there must be at least one division upon each school, with many amendments. Whether they will use the closure as freely as it is employed in this House—[ cheers ]—I cannot say; but at all events the discussion will be of a protracted character before they arrive at a conclusion on the scheme which is to enlighten time Vice President of the Committee of Council. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " freely as it is employed in this House—[ cheers ]—I cannot say; but at all events the discussion will be of a protracted character before they arrive at a conclusion on the scheme which is to enlighten time Vice President of the Committee of Council. [ Laughter. ] I have observed, with much regret, during these discussions a certain reserve and melancholy in the appearance of the Vice President. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "eme which is to enlighten time Vice President of the Committee of Council. [ Laughter. ] I have observed, with much regret, during these discussions a certain reserve and melancholy in the appearance of the Vice President. [ Laughter. ] I never understood what was the reason of it, but now I quite understand it is the prospect of this advice which he is to receive from the voluntary associations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ve from the voluntary associations. [ Laughter. ] Just picture to yourselves what is to be the function and the office of the Vice President when he receives this scheme. It will be a record of the bickerings and the quarrels of all these ecclesiastics as to the sum which each is to receive. Every one of them, I imagine, will appeal to him to redress the injustice of which he has been the victim. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " Vice President, who is to have, as the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite tells him, an absolute power to remould this scheme, is to encounter the ecclesiastics from a population of a million and to re-judge their acts, to redress their injustice, and to give to those who have not 355 received what they ought to have had, and to take away from those who have got what they ought not to have had. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Loud laughter.", "preceding_text": "cts, to redress their injustice, and to give to those who have not 355 received what they ought to have had, and to take away from those who have got what they ought not to have had. [ Laughter. ] This is to be the function of the Vice President in regard to those advisers who have been quarrelling over the £50,000. I do not wonder that, in prospect of that, the Vice President appears thoughtful. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " Vice President in regard to those advisers who have been quarrelling over the £50,000. I do not wonder that, in prospect of that, the Vice President appears thoughtful. [ Loud laughter. ] It has often been said of advice that it is a thing that is constantly offered but which is seldom taken; and I should think, probably, with that maxim in his mind, the Vice President might pluck up his spirits—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ally ask, is this a practical question? They are not the ideals which the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite has said they are. He has told us they are not going to govern the schools. We know that very well. He has told us that, in the ordinary sense of the word, there is no compulsion. We know that very well. They have, he said, only to distribute the money. But what sort of an \"only\" is that? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "to consider in the Amendment. Applying, to it ordinary intelligence and some experience of the questions, and the districts, and the habits of the people who will have to deal with this question, unless some very different explanation can be given than any yet offered, I must pronounce it to be the most preposterous and absurd scheme that was ever submitted to the judgment of the House of Commons."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter and cheers.", "preceding_text": "the House of Commons.[ Cheers. ] § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY , who was received with Ministerial cheers, said: Perhaps I am not a wholly impartial critic of the Debates we have now beat conducting for four or five nights in Committee, but we have wanted hither-to, in my judgment, two things—wisdom and liveliness. I do not say the right hon. Gentleman opposite, has contributed the wisdom—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ts in Committee, but we have wanted hither-to, in my judgment, two things—wisdom and liveliness. I do not say the right hon. Gentleman opposite, has contributed the wisdom—[ laughter and cheers. ]—will do hint the justice to say that he has given us an ample dose of liveliness, which makes up for many hours of somewhat weary discussion. Before I 356 meet the special arguments or the special jokes—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " not say the right hon. Gentleman opposite, has contributed the wisdom—[ laughter and cheers. ]—will do hint the justice to say that he has given us an ample dose of liveliness, which makes up for many hours of somewhat weary discussion. Before I 356 meet the special arguments or the special jokes—[ laughter ]—for joke, and argument were so indistinguishable that I hardly know which, to call them—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "as also decided that that money is not to be given to Voluntary Schools at a fixed rate of 5s. a head. It has left undetermined the machinery by which that distribution is to take place, and no one has suggested, as far as I know, that there is open to our choice any machinery except the alternative machinery of the Department unassisted by associations or the Department assisted by associations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "h associations. All I say is that, on the, broad issue which I venture to say is now before the Committee, there can be no doubt that the primâa facie verdict of the Committee will be that the associations should be called into existence, if it be possible to call them into existence, in order to assist the Department in the difficult task which the Bill, as already passed, lays upon them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "reliminary presumption against the Government, because he says that my hon. and learned Friend 357 on my right and myself, who have been very deeply concerned with the drafting and the defence of the Bill, are both Scotchmen, and are, therefore, as he would imply, incapable of appreciating those niceties of clerical life in England, of which the right hon. Gentleman has been so happy an exponent. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ry deeply concerned with the drafting and the defence of the Bill, are both Scotchmen, and are, therefore, as he would imply, incapable of appreciating those niceties of clerical life in England, of which the right hon. Gentleman has been so happy an exponent. [ Laughter. ] I gather from the right hon. Gentleman that it is his good fortune to move habitually during the recess in clerical circles. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " England, of which the right hon. Gentleman has been so happy an exponent. [ Laughter. ] I gather from the right hon. Gentleman that it is his good fortune to move habitually during the recess in clerical circles. [ Laughter. ] I gather that when he retires from the labours of this House, he goes down to his rural retreat, and there meets in happy daily converse the managers of Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ht hon. Gentleman that it is his good fortune to move habitually during the recess in clerical circles. [ Laughter. ] I gather that when he retires from the labours of this House, he goes down to his rural retreat, and there meets in happy daily converse the managers of Voluntary Schools. [ Laughter. ] discusses their difficulties with them, and I have no doubt largely subscribes to their schools—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ls. I do not doubt the right hon. Gentleman's superior knowledge of English clerical life, but I cannot help thinking, though perhaps from a greater distance and under greater disadvantages, that I have formed at least as just, as I certainly have formed a far more favourable, estimate of the clergy and the power of co-operation among the clergy in all districts of England, whether rural or urban."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "trusted than his upon that question. The right hon. Gentleman has drawn a picture of how one of these associations is to be occupied in connection with the distribution of the sum allocated to it under this Bill. It was not a flattering picture. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have called into existence a picture of—should I be violating the rules of order, Mr. Lowther, if I said 100 Harcourts?—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "more laughter", "preceding_text": "ion. The right hon. Gentleman has drawn a picture of how one of these associations is to be occupied in connection with the distribution of the sum allocated to it under this Bill. It was not a flattering picture. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have called into existence a picture of—should I be violating the rules of order, Mr. Lowther, if I said 100 Harcourts?—[ laughter ]—all in holy orders—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers.", "preceding_text": "ion of the sum allocated to it under this Bill. It was not a flattering picture. The right hon. Gentleman seems to have called into existence a picture of—should I be violating the rules of order, Mr. Lowther, if I said 100 Harcourts?—[ laughter ]—all in holy orders—[ more laughter ]—and all scrambling—to use his own classic phrase—fur a share of this 5s. grant for their own pet particular school."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "pursue. But why are we to assume, why ought we to assume, that when you bring together a set of gentlemen all concerned in keeping up the standard of Voluntary Education, all equally desirous to maintain the present system of education, that they are all going to scramble for these 5s. which are given by the State, squabbling like so many fishwives for the amount they can drag into their own net? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear !\"", "preceding_text": "insignificant—leads me to believe that there will be no material difficulty either in bringing these associations into existence or in inducing them when they have, been brought into existence to work, not each for the benefit of the particular representative or separate individual concerned, but for the common benefit of the great object for which the 359 association itself is called into being. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "this country, are we not familiar with public assemblies of every sort, kind, and description, from the Houses of Parliament to county councils, town councils, parish councils, Poor Law Boards, and all the rest of it? Are we unduly proud of ourselves when we say it is a characteristic of Englishmen, when they come together, that they are capable of working together for a common and public object? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " parish councils, Poor Law Boards, and all the rest of it? Are we unduly proud of ourselves when we say it is a characteristic of Englishmen, when they come together, that they are capable of working together for a common and public object? [ Cheers. ] Are the clergy, and the clergy alone in this country, absolutely incapable of this public spirit and of joining in common effort for a common end? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " this country, absolutely incapable of this public spirit and of joining in common effort for a common end? [ Cheers. ] I do not for one moment credit it, and, though I will not attempt to minimise either the difficulties or the responsibilities which will be thrown upon those associations by this Bill, I will say that I believe they will be found equal to those difficulties and responsibilities. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "e think and believe they will be worked, nothing will strengthen the Voluntary School system of this country more, nothing will tend to put it on a more permanent and more stable basis, than the fact that the managers of Voluntary Schools can meet together, can discuss their common object, and can co-operate together to meet, by the help of the money given, the needs which they respectively feel. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Loud cheers.", "preceding_text": "e 5s. grant, and I boldly make my confession to the Committee, subject, of course, to all the scorn and criticism that will be heaped upon me if this Bill is a failure, that at this moment my hopes for the good effects of this Measure are more largely founded upon this sub-section dealing with associations, than upon any other part of the Bill which we have the honour to present to the Committee. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Divide!\"", "preceding_text": "s to the schools. There would be diocesan federations and diocesan councils, and they would say to every school, \"You must consent to associate for the purpose of all grants; if you do not associate we will not give you any special grant at all. \"If a school refused to be associate, not merely for the purpose of the 5s. grant, but of all other grants, then the 5s. grant would be withheld from it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Renewed cries of \"Divide!\"", "preceding_text": "ot merely for the purpose of the 5s. grant, but of all other grants, then the 5s. grant would be withheld from it. [ Cries of \"Divide!\"] If an 361 enemy of the Voluntary Schools had proposed this scheme he would not have wondered at it. The clergymen in all parts of the country were protesting against it—[\"Divide!\"]—Voluntary School teachers in all parts of the country were protesting against it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " Schools had proposed this scheme he would not have wondered at it. The clergymen in all parts of the country were protesting against it—[\"Divide!\"]—Voluntary School teachers in all parts of the country were protesting against it. [ Renewed cries of \"Divide!\"] Those who knew the facts were opposed to the proposal, and those who supported the proposal would have cause to regret it in time to come. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Divide!\"", "preceding_text": "he proposal, and those who supported the proposal would have cause to regret it in time to come. [\"Hear, hear!\"] § MR. LOUGH said the Leader of the House really based his support of these associations on two arguments. He said that the representatives of the different schools would have a common object. Perhaps someone who believed in the Bill would show them where the common object came in. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ed to consider as having been determined for in these Debates. It was a, matter which ought to come before the House when the schemes had been formed and the Department had considered them, and it would be a great misfortune if the Committee were to give a blank cheque to the Department and leave them to constitute associations which might afterwards prove not to be constituted on the best lines. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\" Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " a blank cheque to the Department and leave them to constitute associations which might afterwards prove not to be constituted on the best lines. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That was one point which suggested itself for further consideration, and he would now mention another. The Government hail promised a Bill on Secondary Education, and he hoped that promise would be fulfilled, either this Session or next. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " next Session, when the Education Department had had time to prepare schemes. There was one point in which elementary schools very closely touched Secondary Education. The higher elementary schools were practically secondary schools, and it was therefore extremely important that the authority administering elementary schools should, for the future, be subject to the Secondary Education authority. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ving the education of the country, who had raised their schools to a point of efficiency beyond what was required by the Education Department. These educational reformers were conducting educational experiments of the greatest importance, and they were afraid that the introduction of these associations might hamper them in their work, which they were now carrying on in such an enlightened spirit. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "on of these associations might hamper them in their work, which they were now carrying on in such an enlightened spirit. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That, was a thing which he thought the Committee ought to guard against by taking care that, while those associations were, framed on large mid liberal lines, they should not be so powerful as to be able to override and hamper the liberty of individual managers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Cheers.\"", "preceding_text": "mper the liberty of individual managers. [\"Hear, hear!\"] That was a point which, he contended, ought not to be left to the Education Department to determine, but ought to be reserved for further consideration by the House. For the reasons he had given he conceived that the Amendment of his hon. Friend would be a very valuable addition to the Bill, and he would have no hesitation in voting for it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "of his hon. Friend would be a very valuable addition to the Bill, and he would have no hesitation in voting for it. [ \"Cheers.\" ] § THE SECRETARY OF STATE FOR THE COLONIES (Mr. J. CHAMBERLAIN,) Birmingham, W. It appears to me that the issue in this sub-section was an extremely simple one, but there was some danger of its being overladen with a cloud of words from the other side of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ub-section was an extremely simple one, but there was some danger of its being overladen with a cloud of words from the other side of the House. [ Ministerial cheers. ] Hon. Gentlemen opposite are most anxious for information as to the intentions and meaning of the Government, and it is extraordinary what a length of time they take in explaining the several matters on which they want information. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers and laughter", "preceding_text": "emen opposite are most anxious for information as to the intentions and meaning of the Government, and it is extraordinary what a length of time they take in explaining the several matters on which they want information. [ Laughter. ] I assume their perfect good faith. I assume their real desire to understand the intentions of the Government and their inability to understand the terms of the Bill—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers", "preceding_text": "tion with the Education Department. It is an entire mistake, and shows a very slight conception Of the meaning and intention of the Bill, to talk, is the hon. Member for West Islington did, about leaving this power with the Associations. It is left to the Education Department, which has the best means of ascertaining the circumstances of different schools at different times through its inspectors—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " any rate, it might reasonably take into consideration. That is all the section does. It encourages the formation of Associations which may submit to the Department, to be used or not at its sole discretion, facts and information which otherwise it could not know. In these few circumstances I have explained the object of the clause, and it does not appear to me to justify much further discussion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t to the Department, to be used or not at its sole discretion, facts and information which otherwise it could not know. In these few circumstances I have explained the object of the clause, and it does not appear to me to justify much further discussion. [\"Hear, hear!\"] SIR FRANK LOCK WOOD I bought the Committee would feel obliged to the right hon. Gentleman for his excessively patronising speech—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "entleman had looked in at about half-past 11. [Mr. J. CHAMBER-LAIN: \"Five minutes past.\"] He was quite ready to concede to the right hon. Gentleman the advantage of the additional 20 minutes; but he thought that short time might have been put to much better use by the right hon. Gentleman, because he did not appear to have derived any real information with regard to the question under discussion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t hon. Gentleman, because he did not appear to have derived any real information with regard to the question under discussion. [\"Hear, hear!\"]The right hon. Gentleman had told them that it was a mere matter of leaving these questions to the discretion of the Education Department. They had not been enlightened, however, on this subject by the responsible Minister of the Department who was present. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "conclusion that the Education Department was unable to carry out the process of distribution, of discrimination, we might at a later stage revert to the question of equal distribution; so that is yet involved in the issue before the Committee. But, for my own part, I am prepared, under certain conditions not immediately arising, to assent to the process recommended by the Government in this Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " later stage revert to the question of equal distribution; so that is yet involved in the issue before the Committee. But, for my own part, I am prepared, under certain conditions not immediately arising, to assent to the process recommended by the Government in this Bill. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But I do not disguise from myself that in doing this we are entering on a far-reaching and pregnant proposal. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "d by the Government in this Bill. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But I do not disguise from myself that in doing this we are entering on a far-reaching and pregnant proposal. [ Cheers. ] This is a Bill for the assistance of denominational schools. The 368 House of Commons, reflecting in this the mind of the nation, has arrived at the conclusion that denominational schools have claims for assistance and support. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "hole question; are you going to allow the Church of England as an educational body, having connection with denominational schools, to organise itself? The proposal of the Government is to allow such a thing to be done, to accept the organisation which may be instituted, and to allow the recommendation of that organisation practically to take the place of the discretion of the Education Department."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "self by dioceses? I ant prepared to try that experiment, but, by way of safeguarding my own position, I propose to support the ultimate proposal to make the Bill temporary in its operation, and to be removed if Parliament desires. Subject to that, and subject to the removal of the compulsory element, I am prepared to support the scheme now before us and to allow the Church to organise its schools."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "opposition laughter.", "preceding_text": "visory body, which the Education Department would be at liberty to ignore or agree with as they thought He presumed that as long as the scheme was in operation and approved the Department would be bound by it and would not be able to ignore it. § THE SOLICITOR GENERAL If the scheme is approved by the Department it will, of course, be acted upon so long as that scheme continues to be approved."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Divide!\"", "preceding_text": " side of the House; and he really thought the Committee ought not to divide until they had a little clearer information on the subject. The Secretary for the Colonies could not have read the passages to which he was referring Once they formed an association and was approved by the Education Department, the position was this. The Education Department could not give a single penny piece to anybody. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "hey had a little clearer information on the subject. The Secretary for the Colonies could not have read the passages to which he was referring Once they formed an association and was approved by the Education Department, the position was this. The Education Department could not give a single penny piece to anybody. [ Cries of \"Divide!\"] He was quite sure that hon. Members did not understand this. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "onfident that the efforts of Her Majesty's Government will be directed to bringing about an amicable settlement of the questions at issue between the Powers and Greece. At the same time we desire an assurance from Her Majesty's Government that the forces of the British Crown shall not be employed against Greece before an opportunity has been given to Parliament of expressing its judgment thereon. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "efore an opportunity has been given to Parliament of expressing its judgment thereon. [ Cheers. ] In that passage is contained practically what I desire to say. We hope and we believe that in the present situation of things there has arisen a position in which an amicable settlement will be arrived at, and which Her Majesty's Government, I am quite sure, will use their best efforts to bring about."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hich it should be contemplated by the Powers to use military and naval force against Greece, what we request and what we desire is that before the forces of the British Crown are employed for that purpose, the policy of the Government and the reasons they have to allege in support of it shall be laid before Parliament, and that Parliament shall have an opportunity of pronouncing upon that policy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "f France has given an undertaking that no procedure of this kind shall be taken by the French forces against Greece without giving an opportunity to the French Chamber of pronouncing its judgment upon it. I do not put this question upon a claim of constitutional right. In that respect no doubt 377 the Government of Great Britain stands in a different position from that of the Government of France."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t position from that of the Government of France.[ Ministerial cheers ] But the appeal I make to the right hon. Gentleman is one not founded upon a claim of right, but upon a claim of policy of the highest description. The Government cannot but be aware of the deep feeling that exists in this nation against the prospect of the forces of the Crown being employed in a hostile manner against Greece. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "rnment have of bringing about an amicable settlement. But when the right hon. Gentleman goes further and asks us to give a pledge that no steps shall be taken in the East of Europe of an executive character in connection with the recent Notes delivered to Greece and Turkey without previous consultation with Parliament, I have to say that in our opinion that would not only be extremely inexpedient—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"} Nor do I think it is our business to go to foreign countries to learn the practice which ought to regulate the conduct of a free people.[ Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ers that a pledge very muck like that which he has asked from us has been given by the French Government to the French Assembly. I am not sure whether the right hon. Gentleman has rightly interpreted the exact character of the pledge given by the French Ministry, but in any case, whether he be right or whether he be wrong, we must be, and we ought to be, guided by our own constitutional practice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": " precedents at all analogous to anything, which even the most pessimistic imagination can suppose as likely to occur in Eastern waters are the precedents of the bombardment of Alexandria and the blockade of Greece. The bombardment of Alexandria took place, I think, in 1882, and the blockade of Greece took place in 1886. In both cases I think the right hon. Gentleman was a Member of the Government—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "xandria took place, I think, in 1882, and the blockade of Greece took place in 1886. In both cases I think the right hon. Gentleman was a Member of the Government—[ cheers ]—and in both cases I have no doubt the Government of which he was a Member acted with perfect propriety; but I cannot believe that anything stronger—I hope that nothing nearly as strong—is likely to occur at the present crisis—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ar!\"]—and certainly profound would be the disappointment of Her Majesty's Government if events of this character were to take place. But in neither of the cases I have mentioned was any notice given to Parliament before the event took place, nor, as far as I am aware, was any Debate permitted by the Executive of the day either on the one subject or the other until after the event had taken place. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ons which have governed the Executive in this country for unnumbered generations as to pledge themselves in a matter of this kind to take no steps whatever in Eastern waters in connection with this crisis, which may lead to action by force, without previously consulting this House. Everything the Government does is done with a consciousness that they are responsible to Parliament mid the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\" and a laugh", "preceding_text": "rs in connection with this crisis, which may lead to action by force, without previously consulting this House. Everything the Government does is done with a consciousness that they are responsible to Parliament mid the country. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If Parliament and the country disapprove of what they have done the remedy is in their own hands; and if it be a punishment to be turned 380 out of office—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ousness that they are responsible to Parliament mid the country. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If Parliament and the country disapprove of what they have done the remedy is in their own hands; and if it be a punishment to be turned 380 out of office—[\"hear, hear!\" and a laugh ]—that punishment will undoubtedly fall on our heads if in this or in any other great national issue we run counter to the national will."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "f what they have done the remedy is in their own hands; and if it be a punishment to be turned 380 out of office—[\"hear, hear!\" and a laugh ]—that punishment will undoubtedly fall on our heads if in this or in any other great national issue we run counter to the national will.[ Cheers. ] But beyond that it is impossible for us to go. Pledges inconsistent with that it is impossible for us to give. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ugh ]—that punishment will undoubtedly fall on our heads if in this or in any other great national issue we run counter to the national will.[ Cheers. ] But beyond that it is impossible for us to go. Pledges inconsistent with that it is impossible for us to give. [\"Hear, hear!\"] We are acting under the firm belief that the policy we are pursuing is a policy of liberty in Crete and peace in Europe."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/09", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/09/crete-1", "section": "crete-1", "cue_text": "Loud cheers.", "preceding_text": "or us to go. Pledges inconsistent with that it is impossible for us to give. [\"Hear, hear!\"] We are acting under the firm belief that the policy we are pursuing is a policy of liberty in Crete and peace in Europe.[ Cheers. ] And neither liberty in Crete nor peace in Europe are we prepared to imperil by entering into a pledge which may hamper our freedom of action, it may be, at a critical moment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial laughter and cries of \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": "n they suggested that he might inform them, upon matters in which they were absolutely in the dark, he suggested that they should put it off again. Information upon the views of the Government as to these associations was desired for their guidance by many supporters of the Government in the country. There it was difficult for local bodies to follow the details of a Bill which was passing rapidly—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ccused of obstruction. The Canterbury Diocesan Board of Education a little while ago considered the Bill. Of course, they generally approved of it; but when they came to the distribution clauses they said:— This Board is unable to express any opinion on the distribution clauses of the Bill in the absence of any sufficient details as to the principles upon which the distribution is to be effected. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": "tance in many other ways. What were the \"many other ways?\" That was one of the things the Opposition desired to know. Last night the First Lord of the Treasury said his hopes as regarded the Bill were staked more on the associations than on the money. The Leader of the House, who was finally responsible for the Bill, had staked his reputation upon it. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY Oh, no. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": "n on the money. The Leader of the House, who was finally responsible for the Bill, had staked his reputation upon it. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY Oh, no. [ Laughter ]. § MR. ACLAND said he was under the impression that at an early stage of the Bill the right hon. Gentleman said he would drop the Bill if popular representation on the governing bodies of the schools were insisted on. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " to be laid down that a strong lay element should exist? There was nothing in the Bill which, implied any definite or certain element in these Associations. Did the Government intend to follow the advice of some of their wisest counsellors and introduce a strong lay element? By that means there would be representation of popular bodies, and some strength might be introduced into the Associations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tions might be beneficial, but he looked forward to them with grave apprehension, as he was fearful that they might give rise to a large amount of local jealousy and irritation. These Associations would actually be making suggestions to the Department as to the distribution of money amongst themselves; in other words, every man upon them would have a direct interest in the money being distributed."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "ear!\"] He had always understood that persons supposed to have a personal interest were forbidden to take any part in the distribution of the funds. He thought the apprehensions of some of the most prominent supporters of the Church and of the Voluntary Schools would be removed if in the Bill some indication were given as to the areas, constitution, and duties of these new educational authorities. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ironical Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "d duties of these new educational authorities. [ Opposition cheers. ] It was a little difficult to discuss the constitution of a body without knowing the area from which that body was to be drawn. They had only had one small piece of information during the Debate as to the area or constitution, and that was in the exceedingly interesting and able speech, made by the Vice President of the Council. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition Cheers", "preceding_text": " He believed the Associations when the Bill passed would have to appoint inspectors to collect and tabulate evidence as to the necessities of the different schools, and for the large staff which would be necessary for this purpose the voluntary subscriptions would be \"sweated.\" Perhaps the Government had determined to press the Bill through Committee without the adoption of any Amendment whatever—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial Cheers", "preceding_text": "e Government had determined to press the Bill through Committee without the adoption of any Amendment whatever—[ Opposition Cheers ]—and he could easily conceive that they might reasonably have come to such a determination, having regard to the series of Amendments which had been moved. He regretted that the discussion had not been limited to what were, in his opinion, bonâ fide Amendments—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ations. This Amendment merely states that there shall be in the Bill some further definition of the conditions upon which these voluntary associations are to be founded. I do not know whether it is that the First Lord of the Treasury is so enamoured of this infant upon whom, as he told us the other night, his future depends— § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I never said anything of the kind. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " the conditions upon which these voluntary associations are to be founded. I do not know whether it is that the First Lord of the Treasury is so enamoured of this infant upon whom, as he told us the other night, his future depends— § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I never said anything of the kind. [ Laughter. ] § SIR W. HARCOURT Well, there was an eloquent passage that went to my heart—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "— § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY I never said anything of the kind. [ Laughter. ] § SIR W. HARCOURT Well, there was an eloquent passage that went to my heart—[ laughter ]—in which the right hon. Gentleman said he was prepared to brave the storm that would be aroused over the failure of this plan of associations. But then it is the way of great men to prefer always their inferior work. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Paradise Regained,\" and laughter.", "preceding_text": "§ SIR W. HARCOURT Well, there was an eloquent passage that went to my heart—[ laughter ]—in which the right hon. Gentleman said he was prepared to brave the storm that would be aroused over the failure of this plan of associations. But then it is the way of great men to prefer always their inferior work. [ Laughter. ] It is said that Milton thought \"Paradise Lost\" was his greatest production."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "said that Milton thought \"Paradise Lost\" was his greatest production.[ Cries of \"Paradise Regained,\" and laughter. ] Yes, \"Paradise Regained.\" I am sorry for the slip. Whether these voluntary associations will be the \"Paradise Regained\" of the First Lord of the Treasury, or whether in the future his reputation will depend on the \"Paradise Lost\" of the voluntary associations, I am not able to say. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ools. Then 600 gentlemen are to meet to distribute this money. My right hon. Friend the late Vice President of the Council asked whether there was to be any lay element in these associations; and some Member on the other side approved of the suggestion. But the First Lord did not state, and he evidently is not prepared to state that even amongst these 600 persons there shall be any laymen at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " side approved of the suggestion. But the First Lord did not state, and he evidently is not prepared to state that even amongst these 600 persons there shall be any laymen at all. [\"Hear, hear!\"] What we are asking for now is that we should have some light upon the question as to how these bodies are to be constituted. It is said they are to be constituted as approved by the Education Department. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " constituted. It is said they are to be constituted as approved by the Education Department. [ Ministerial cries of \"Hear, hear!\"] Yes, but what are to be the general principles upon which the Education Department is to approve of these associations? That is exactly what the representative of the Education Department in this House has not been allowed to tell us: and everything depends upon that. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "and everything depends upon that. [ Cheers. ] But if the Vice President of the Committee of the Council is not allowed to give to the House or to the country any indication whatever of the lines upon which these associations are to be administered and constituted, at all events we have got here a responsible Minister and a Member of the Committee of the Council in the First Lord of the Admiralty. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "e lines upon which these associations are to be administered and constituted, at all events we have got here a responsible Minister and a Member of the Committee of the Council in the First Lord of the Admiralty. [ Laughter. ] When we asked the Vice President whom that Council consisted of he mentioned with great emphasis the First Lord of the Admiralty as one of the principal lights of that body—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "mber of the Committee of the Council in the First Lord of the Admiralty. [ Laughter. ] When we asked the Vice President whom that Council consisted of he mentioned with great emphasis the First Lord of the Admiralty as one of the principal lights of that body—[ laughter ]—and if the Vice President is not to have a voice in the determination of this matter no more than he has a voice in this House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "e mentioned with great emphasis the First Lord of the Admiralty as one of the principal lights of that body—[ laughter ]—and if the Vice President is not to have a voice in the determination of this matter no more than he has a voice in this House—[ laughter ]—perhaps the more distinguished members of Committee of the Council, such as the First Lord of the Admiralty and Secretary of State for War—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ight give us some indication of what is intended in this matter. Surely the right hon. Gentleman does not expect—does not think it fair to expect—that the House is going to pass this Bill without any further information on the subject than has been already given. 392 § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY: \"Hear, hear!\" § SIR W. HARCOURT But that is exactly what is asked for in the Amendment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " deal with those points now, however desirable, would be to anticipate discussion. § SIR W. HARCOURT But all this Amendment asks is that there should be some definition. But we know now what the policy of the Government is in regard to the Bill. The Government are determined that no Amendment is to be admitted into the Bill, for the express purpose of preventing discussion on a future stage. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "Government are determined that no Amendment is to be admitted into the Bill, for the express purpose of preventing discussion on a future stage. [ Cheers. ] And what is it that we complain of? We complain that from the first it has been determined that there shall be no discussion and no Amendment of this Bill; and that every method is to be employed to prevent that discussion and that Amendment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " ] And what is it that we complain of? We complain that from the first it has been determined that there shall be no discussion and no Amendment of this Bill; and that every method is to be employed to prevent that discussion and that Amendment. [ Cheers. ] I cannot but think that this refusal of the Government to give information on this material question is neither fair nor just to the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": ". [ Cheers. ] If the Government are determined to pursue that course, we can only protest. They will in vain say that they have allowed, on this great question of education, that freedom of discussion in this House which it ought to receive. Certainly the Measure will not go forth to the country with that sanction which a Measure of importance that has been properly discussed ought to go country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " vain against the great battalions opposite. I have never known these great battalions to be employed in the manner in which they have been employed by the Government throughout this Bill, and especially in connection with this point of the school associations, despite the appeals which have been made to the Government from their own side of the House as well as from the ranks of their opponents. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "cussion 393 of the methods by which this Bill has been conducted. When the right hon. Gentleman tells the astonished Committee that there has not been full and free discussion upon the Measure, I confess that if his idea of full and free discussion is not satisfied by the time we have spent in passing ten lines, I do not know how he proposes that legislation should pass through this House at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "cheers; and cries of \"The Home Rule Bill \" from the Opposition Benches.", "preceding_text": "discussion is not satisfied by the time we have spent in passing ten lines, I do not know how he proposes that legislation should pass through this House at all. [ Cheers. ] I do not remember any case in my Parliamentary experience in which so much time has been taken as over the discussion, very often—if I may speak my full opinion—of very frivolous Amendments to the first few lines of the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " in which so much time has been taken as over the discussion, very often—if I may speak my full opinion—of very frivolous Amendments to the first few lines of the Bill. [ cheers; and cries of \"The Home Rule Bill \" from the Opposition Benches. ] The discussion on the first clause of the Home Rule Bill was a protracted discussion: but I do not believe it was nearly as protracted as this discussion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "h we have had, by the very admission of hon. Gentlemen opposite, we have not yet reached the most critical part of the clause; for the matter on which they must feel most keenly is the question of the associations. The Government have no desire to conceal their views; but the sole point is, ought we to discuss this question on this Amendment or on specific Amendments raising the different points? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "raise the general question of the associations; and I should, therefore, be out of order if I were to attempt to respond to the invitation of the right hon. Gentleman. As to his statement that it is the settled policy of the Government that no Amendment shall be adopted, I would say that it is the settled policy of the Government that no Amendment shall be adopted which will not improve the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "nciliate the Opposition and make the Debates run more smoothly. But those Bills were met by the Opposition in a very different spirit and manner; and it must be perfectly obvious to anyone that Amendments which are not improvements to the Bill, and which are simply brought forward to smooth the passage of the Bill, would not in this case have that effect, and ought not in this case to be adopted. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " does involve a departure from Parliamentary precedent; but when we come to the question whether the clause stand part of the Bill—or if at a subsequent stage we are able to debate the Bill as a whole—many of us will feel it our duty to call the attention of the House and of the country to the fact that in relation to a Measure of first-class importance an absolutely new departure has been taken. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheer", "preceding_text": "e Opposition. The right hon. Gentleman says that when we come to a subsequent Amendment we can discuss the constitution and the areas of these associations. But that is not the question. The question is: Are the Government prepared to introduce into the Bill, at any time and in any shape, words which will secure that the constitution of these associations shall be a matter of statutory definition—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " But that is not the question. The question is: Are the Government prepared to introduce into the Bill, at any time and in any shape, words which will secure that the constitution of these associations shall be a matter of statutory definition—[ Cheer ]—that the conditions under which they exist shall be prescribed by Parliament, and not left to the fluctuating caprice of a Government Department? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "s to be the constitution and what are to be the areas of these new bodies. The right hon. Gentleman says that he will accept Amendments which are improvements to the Bill. But is he, or is he not, prepared to lay down that in a matter of such vital importance as this all control is to be withdrawn from the House of Commons and that we are to be left absolutely at the discretion of the Department? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "me, lay upon the Table of the House the schemes by which these associations are constituted. We are prepared to adopt whichever method the Government think most convenient; but we assert that you ought not to hand over these large powers to bodies whose constitution is indefinite, and as to whose conditions of action no pledges which the right hon. Gentleman can give can possibly bind the future. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "y I point out that on this Amendment the question is not raised? Supposing the Amendment be rejected, as I hope it will be, it will still be as open to the Committee as before to lay down Parliamentary conditions with regard to the associations, either by the methods suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, or by the methods suggested by various other ingenious persons who have pat down Amendments. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "ironical cheers", "preceding_text": "re to lay down Parliamentary conditions with regard to the associations, either by the methods suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, or by the methods suggested by various other ingenious persons who have pat down Amendments. [ Laughter. ] If he asks me whether I think there ought to be Parliamentary regulations in this matter, I say I have not been able to think of any Parliamentary regulations—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ironical cheers.", "preceding_text": "ither by the methods suggested by the right hon. Gentleman, or by the methods suggested by various other ingenious persons who have pat down Amendments. [ Laughter. ] If he asks me whether I think there ought to be Parliamentary regulations in this matter, I say I have not been able to think of any Parliamentary regulations—[ ironical cheers ]—which would not be deleterious to the object in view. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition laughter", "preceding_text": "gested by various other ingenious persons who have pat down Amendments. [ Laughter. ] If he asks me whether I think there ought to be Parliamentary regulations in this matter, I say I have not been able to think of any Parliamentary regulations—[ ironical cheers ]—which would not be deleterious to the object in view. [ Ironical cheers. ] I am quite ready to listen to suggestions and to argue them—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er ]—and if suggestions are made which ought to be introduced into the Bill, of course they will be. § CAPTAIN BETHELL (York, E. R., Holderness) said that the right hon. Member for Fife talked about a new departure. 396 It was undoubtedly true that, since the Parliament which sat in 1892, a wise spirit of conciliation and compromise had left the House, and the sooner it came back the better. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "e sooner it came back the better. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He himself entirely disagreed with the view of the right hon. Member for Fife, and he favoured the plan of the Government. All were agreed that there must be some local authority to assist in the distribution of this money. He thought it was much better that these authorities should be as various and as suitable to local circumstances as possible. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "oluntary. The Committee had wisely rejected the proposal that the administration should be left entirely in the hands of the Education Department. He was bound to say that he objected to the Bill because it gave more power than it ought to the Education Department; but he preferred the proposals of the Government in respect to these associations, because, to some extent, they modified that power. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "it ought to the Education Department; but he preferred the proposals of the Government in respect to these associations, because, to some extent, they modified that power. [\"Hear, hear!\"] He was always in favour—even at the expense of efficiency—of giving the power to local authorities to manage local affairs; and he was always opposed to giving further powers to the Government State Departments. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "wers to the Government State Departments. [ Cheers. ] That was a bad and detestable form of government. He thought it would be impossible to insert in the Bill any general rule by which the associations could be formed. It would be much better to leave them to the voluntary section of the localities than to insert rules which could only end in creating inelastic bodies unsuited to the localities. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "g this money in the first instance. He was not so sure that this would be a final matter—he was not sure that they would stop at the £600,000. There had been some ominous hints in the course of the Debate that, if the First Lord of the Treasury or the Chancellor of the Exchequer had seen his way to make this grant 10s. instead of 5s., there would have been no opposition on that side of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rd to the power and the money the House of Commons was going to place in the hands of associations in the first instance, and also the possibility, perhaps the probability, of an extension of power and financial control, he thought they had a right to again ask the Government, in their own way if they liked, to provide that Parliament should have some voice in the initiation of these associations."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"No, no!\" and \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "As a matter of fact they must know that a Bishop of strong character, a great and good man, could easily get his own way, and these associations being constituted upon the ecclesiastical area would be entirely under the control of the Bishop of the diocese. The money and the power would be used in Wales, at all events, not for educational purposes, but for the purposes of fighting Nonconformists. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "roviding that no areas in rural districts should exceed district council areas except with the permission of the Department. There was a distinct feeling in many sparsely populated districts, especially in the south of England, that they might be over-whelmed by one or two big towns which had great powers of combination, and that they might not, therefore, quite get their fair share of the grant. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " their fair share of the grant. [\"Hear, hear!\"] There were many Members on his side of the House who would like to know from the Government whether, if in a rural district, now in a rural district council area, the people desired to form themselves into an association, that association would be allowed to stand, even though there was an application for an association to include the whole diocese? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "hould be large enough to induce persons of real ability to attend the meetings which would be held. As in the County Council they had better men than they had in the District Council, and in the District Council better men than in the Parish Council, so he hoped the area would be large enough to attract the best men. Secondly, he hoped the area would be one that would commend itself to the laity. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "eld a meeting at Worcester yesterday, and if any set of persons were to be suspected they were. They were the head and front of the offending; they were the head centre of the diocesan organisation of Worcester; and the Archdeacon of Worcester said at their sub-committee that day some members were of opinion that the areas of the federation should have civil rather than ecclesiastical boundaries. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "ssociation, or a Wesleyan association, but a general federation. He (Colonel Milward) agreed 415 that if possible the association should include all denominations. He said that, having had experience, and he therefore thought the organisation should not be a diocesan organisation. He also thought it should not be a county organisation, but should be fixed according to the areas of the inspectors. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ve to be faced. The diocesan associations were already associations to help necessitous schools, and these proposed associations would meet together in the same way. They would know how much money they had to divide, and they would inquire into the circumstances of the different schools, and he had not the least doubt they would be able to divide the money in a manner satisfactory to the schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e inspectors' area they would still have the diocesan organisation working by their side, still carrying on the work of diocesan inspection. The present diocesan organisation cost about £350. The diocese of the new body need not cost more than £40 or £50 at the outside the first year, and gradually less afterwards, and he believed that these bodies would securely strengthen the Voluntary Schools. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "can assure the Committee that neither of those charitable explanations is the correct one. It has not been to avoid drafting difficulties, or because we have not given time and attention to the matter, that we have deliberately come to the conclusion that the elastic framework which we have provided for these associations is the only possible framework which will meet the necessities of the case. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "t to determine is whether we shall lay down in the Bill elaborate statutory regulations dealing with the constitution and area of these associations, or whether we shall leave them to develop in each district according to the needs of the district, and according to the needs of the class of denominational school. We have unhesitatingly decided that the fluid method is better than the rigid method—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "to compel Voluntary Schools who are unwilling to join the associations to 418 carry out that policy. That alone shows the enormous difference that there is between the associations that we wish to call into existence and the local authorities with whom these associations have been so freely compared. The only statutory power which is given to the associations by the Bill is the power of advising. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e to form associations entirely composed of Wesleyan schools, or they may desire to join associations constituted partly of other denominations. The result would be exactly what the hon. Gentleman pointed out in his interruption; you will necessarily have, if these associations are denominational, associations are denominational, associations of different 419 denominations covering the same area. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ssociations, and all associations will not have the same boundary. If that is to be the result of the Bill, how, then, can the House of Commons be asked to engage itself in so wild a task as the laying down of specific rules for the constitution of associations which are so infinitely varied in their character, in their needs, and also in the character of the schools with which they have to deal? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " as the laying down of specific rules for the constitution of associations which are so infinitely varied in their character, in their needs, and also in the character of the schools with which they have to deal? [ Cheers. ] I have one thing more to say, and I say it freely, because I want to be quite candid with the House. I admit that there is a large experimental element in these associations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "haracter of the schools with which they have to deal? [ Cheers. ] I have one thing more to say, and I say it freely, because I want to be quite candid with the House. I admit that there is a large experimental element in these associations. [\"Hear, hear!\"] No statutory recognition has ever been given to them before. No bodies of this kind have ever before been asked to carry out statutory duties. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "xperimental side to them. But would it not be folly not to resort to that experiment, and thereby prevent the Education Department from learning by experience; and the denominational schools themselves from learning by experience, and from modifying from time to time the character, it may be the area, and it may be the constitution, of the association they are now voluntarily called upon to join? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "stitution, of the association they are now voluntarily called upon to join? [ Cheers. ] We have shown that neither through idleness nor by design do we leave the Bill in its present shape; but that it is essential to the free, healthy and unfettered growth of these associations that we should not attempt by statutory regulations to lay down beforehand the exact lines to which they are to conform. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " would like to know the meaning of that phrase. Speaking on the First Reading of the Bill, and describing those associations, the right hon. Gentleman said:— So strongly do we believe in the importance of associations that we have put in a special provision enabling the Education Department to refuse any assistance out of the grant to any school which unreasonably refuses to join any association. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "in the House who knew whether the area was to be the same for all denominations, or whether it was to be different for different denominations. The First Lord of the Treasury had told them, not indeed directly, but by implication, that there ought to be different areas for different denominations. So it appeared they had been talking the whole evening without knowing what they were talking about. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "y had told them, not indeed directly, but by implication, that there ought to be different areas for different denominations. So it appeared they had been talking the whole evening without knowing what they were talking about. [ Ministerial cheers. ] Hon. Members opposite blamed them for wasting the time of the House. If anyone had wasted time that afternoon it was the First Lord of the Treasury. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "the time of the House. If anyone had wasted time that afternoon it was the First Lord of the Treasury. [ Cheers. ] Had the First Lord been so good as to have told them at the commencement of the Debate what it was he had in his mind in regard to these associations, every one of the Amendments which had been discussed that day would have been discussed at any rate in a totally 422 different light. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "reasury. [ Cheers. ] Had the First Lord been so good as to have told them at the commencement of the Debate what it was he had in his mind in regard to these associations, every one of the Amendments which had been discussed that day would have been discussed at any rate in a totally 422 different light. [ Cheers. ] The First Lord said that there were to be different areas for every denomination. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/10/aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "section": "aid-grant-to-voluntary-elementary-schools", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " told them at the commencement of the Debate what it was he had in his mind in regard to these associations, every one of the Amendments which had been discussed that day would have been discussed at any rate in a totally 422 different light. [ Cheers. ] The First Lord said that there were to be different areas for every denomination. [ Cries of \"No.\"] Then what did the right hon. Gentleman mean? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/national-telephone-company", "section": "national-telephone-company", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "decide? § MR. HANBURY The facts are as stated by my hon. Friend, except that the banquet was not given by the Company, but by the staff. In taking the course alluded to the officials in question were following the usual practice of the Department. The question, however, of the desirability of Government officials attending on occasions of this kind is one undoubtedly requiring consideration. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/army-contracts-ireland", "section": "army-contracts-ireland", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hem belonging to the Army Service Corps, have visited Ireland in reference to the question of the meat supply to the troops, and they are now pursuing their inquiries in other parts of the kingdom. They will furnish a Report concerning Ireland as soon as their information is complete, but it will be a Report to the Secretary of State, and, like other Departmental Reports, will not be made public. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/dogs-destroyed-ireland", "section": "dogs-destroyed-ireland", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "dog. § CAPTAIN DONELAN asked whether it was part of the duty of the Royal Irish Constabulary to assign the value of farmers' dogs? § MR. GERALD BALFOUR I could not say, Sir; but it does not seem to me to be very relevant, because there can be no compensation in any case. § MR. EDWARD CARSON (Dublin University) Was not the claim made on the ground that the dogs were foreign animals? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/jameson-raid-transvaal", "section": "jameson-raid-transvaal", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "has only arrived to-day. But I must also point out to him that that demand will have to be forwarded for consideration and remarks to the Chartered Company; further, that it will have to be subjected to legal investigation and will have to be considered by myself and Her Majesty's Government, and it will then be the subject of communications, which may be prolonged, with the Transvaal Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/jameson-raid-transvaal", "section": "jameson-raid-transvaal", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "tion and will have to be considered by myself and Her Majesty's Government, and it will then be the subject of communications, which may be prolonged, with the Transvaal Government. [ Laughter. ] Under the circumstances I must deprecate any further questions upon the subject, because until that process has been gone through and exhausted it will be quite impossible for me to give any information. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/jameson-raid-transvaal", "section": "jameson-raid-transvaal", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ll be quite impossible for me to give any information. [\"Hear, hear!\"] § SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT Perhaps the right hon. Gentleman will not think it an excessive demand if I ask him whether he can tell us if the demand of the Transvaal Government is for £1,600,000 or for £1,000,000? § MR. J. CHAMBERLAIN I have already answered that question. It is for £1,677,000, odd shillings and pence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/supply-irish-land-commission", "section": "supply-irish-land-commission", "cue_text": "\"hear, hear!", "preceding_text": " § MR. J. C. FLYNN (Cork, N.) would ask the right hon. Gentleman, before he answered that Question, to say whether the discontent was not felt more particularly by the tenantry of Ireland, and especially in Ulster? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY As far as my observation goes 1037 the discontent in respect of the Land Laws in Ireland has been universal with all classes of the community—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/supply-irish-land-commission", "section": "supply-irish-land-commission", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ot felt more particularly by the tenantry of Ireland, and especially in Ulster? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY As far as my observation goes 1037 the discontent in respect of the Land Laws in Ireland has been universal with all classes of the community—[\"hear, hear!]—and my private conviction is that so long as you continue to fix rents by a public tribunal there always will be discontent. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/crete", "section": "crete", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ly, whether he can give the House any information as to the alleged sinking of a Greek vessel by an Austrian cruiser off the coast of Crete, and how that occurred, in view of the fact that the blockade does not commence until Sunday? MR. CURZON I really do not think that the hon. Gentleman ought to ask me this Question without any notice at all. I must ask him to be good enough to give me notice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Mr. ROBERTSON: \"No,\" and cheers", "preceding_text": "uss it. He proposed to refer to it because they were dealing with the salaries of the Admirals, and he thought it would be relevant to ask for the Instructions given to the Admirals in Cretan waters. THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS said the Admirals simply carried out the instructions of the Admiralty, and the Admiralty were responsible for the issue of instructions, and, therefore, any criticisms—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": ". Gentleman said that there was a unanimity of opinion among these correspondents? § MR. DILLON said he took the statement from The Times, and he believed the Standard and Daily News bore out the statement. § SIR E. ASHMEAD-BARTLETT said that no correspondent, as a matter of fact, could have been on the spot at the time, and the statement must therefore have rested very much on hearsay. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "l were to be censured for sending this particular telegram, the whole question of furnishing information to war correspondents 1043 would have to be reconsidered. I am sure some hon. Members on the opposite side of the House will feel that it must have been extremely galling for the Admirals to have seen all the strictures cast upon them without being able to say one single word in their defence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " would have to be reconsidered. I am sure some hon. Members on the opposite side of the House will feel that it must have been extremely galling for the Admirals to have seen all the strictures cast upon them without being able to say one single word in their defence. [ Cheers. ] Accordingly, I should certainly not feel it my duty in any way to reprove Admiral Harris for the action which he took. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "eir flag at that point. The British Admiral states that it was a homestead with stone walls round it. It was a strong place, and it was there that the insurgents flew their flag. With regard to the question of notice, it seems to me to have been as proper a precaution as could possibly be taken by the Admiral to communicate with the Greek Commodore, and for him to communicate with the insurgents. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " notice, it seems to me to have been as proper a precaution as could possibly be taken by the Admiral to communicate with the Greek Commodore, and for him to communicate with the insurgents. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The hon. Member knows the Admirals state that these notices were given, and I do really not see why the word of the Admirals in this respect should not be taken against any anonymous evidence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "y have been that any Greeks or Turks taken as interpreters would be likely to be open to suspicion, and of course that is a very important point. It is very desirable that all ships of war should be furnished, as far as possible, with men capable of speaking various 1044 languages; it is a matter which has occupied my attention, and I am not surprised that attention should have been called to it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "that the First Lord of the Admiralty should say that Admiral Harris had acted in accordance with the spirit of the regulations. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY What I said was that he had not acted contrary to the spirit of the regulations. § MR. LABOUCHERE replied that if Admiral Harris had not acted contrary to the spirit of the regulations, he must have acted in accordance with it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "Admiral did not write home to his own Government on the subject, and thus enable the Greek Commodore to reply; but he sent for the correspondent of The Times newspaper, and put into his hands this accusation against the Commodore, and asked him to send it to his newspaper. Nothing more objectionable, unfair, or contrary to the spirit and the letter of the Admiralty regulations could be conceived. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "rris had any intention of accusing the Greek Commodore of having betrayed the trust reposed in him, and whether the Admiral was technically right in having communicated with the correspondent of The Times he did not profess to say, but he joined his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for East-bourne in defending the Admiral for the action he had taken, considering the provocation he had received. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers", "preceding_text": "is was not a case of the Admiral having offered or sent fresh information to a particular newspaper—for the explanation appeared in all the London daily papers the same morning; but it was a case t he Admiral taking the quickest possible way of making his position and the position of his brother Admirals clear to the world in regard to a certain false report which had been circulated against them—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "er Admirals clear to the world in regard to a certain false report which had been circulated against them—[ Ministerial cheers ]—and, taking that view of the matter, he should be very sorry if the result of the Debate should be to make it more difficult for newspaper correspondents to obtain information front naval and military sources during the grave crisis through which Europe was now passing. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"No, no!\" and Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "irely inconsistent with the regulations; and he therefore sincerely hoped that there was some mistake, and that no such message had been sent by Admiral Harris. But there was one thing the House should take a note of, and that was the way in which the First Lord of the Admiralty appeared to be inclined to fritter away the most prominent, wholesome, and universal of the regulations of the Service. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "minent, wholesome, and universal of the regulations of the Service. [ Ministerial cries of \"No, no!\" and Opposition cheers. ] If the plain words of the Admiralty regulations forbidding any person in the Fleet to publish or cause to be published, directly or indirectly, any matter relating to the public service, were to be treated in this way, it would be bad for the Service and bad for the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "newspaper correspondent, there was a broad distinction to be drawn between the use which Admiral Harris made of the correspondent—for he must assume that the telegram to The Times was true—and the suborning of a correspondent to write up a particular officer and particular views. The former act was in the public interest; the latter, though it was often done by naval officers, was most obnoxious. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "terest; the latter, though it was often done by naval officers, was most obnoxious. [\"Hear, hear!\"] A certain discretion should be allowed to an Admiral as to the manner of communicating news to the public. As to the Admiralty regulation against any officer writing or publishing any matter connected with the public service, that regulation was carried out in a most partial and mischievous manner. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "officer to publish articles of the utmost public importance. He had called attention to the case of a naval officer who was forbidden to read a paper before the Royal United Service Institution on the strategic interests of England in the Mediterranean. If the regulations were to be enforced against the smaller people, officials and officers should be forbidden to write to the papers anonymously. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nterview with the insurgent chiefs that their warning had never been received by the latter. Before Admiral Harris fired on the insurgents he ought to have satisfied himself personally, without the intermediary of the Greek Commodore, that the insurgents were warned. Commodore Reineck was not acting with the allies, and had been treated by them with every sign of hostility and want of confidence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "gents he ought to have satisfied himself personally, without the intermediary of the Greek Commodore, that the insurgents were warned. Commodore Reineck was not acting with the allies, and had been treated by them with every sign of hostility and want of confidence. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But, on his own statement, Admiral Harris did not satisfy himself, but trusted to the action of the Greek Commodore. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Oh,\" and \"How?\"", "preceding_text": " without the intermediary of the Greek Commodore, that the insurgents were warned. Commodore Reineck was not acting with the allies, and had been treated by them with every sign of hostility and want of confidence. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But, on his own statement, Admiral Harris did not satisfy himself, but trusted to the action of the Greek Commodore. [ Cheers. ] It was his business to satisfy himself. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "t acting with the allies, and had been treated by them with every sign of hostility and want of confidence. [\"Hear, hear!\"] But, on his own statement, Admiral Harris did not satisfy himself, but trusted to the action of the Greek Commodore. [ Cheers. ] It was his business to satisfy himself. [ Cries of \"Oh,\" and \"How?\"] By the same means that he afterwards took to communicate with the insurgents. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "uks were the aggressors; but this did not reach the Admirals in time to stop the bombardment, and accordingly the insurgents were fired on while they were under the impression that they were still in negotiation with the Admirals. Because the British Admiral was in such a hurry, and sent his message in such a roundabout way, he opened fire on men who had no reasonable ground to expect the attack. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "s were fired on while they were under the impression that they were still in negotiation with the Admirals. Because the British Admiral was in such a hurry, and sent his message in such a roundabout way, he opened fire on men who had no reasonable ground to expect the attack. [\"Hear, hear!\"] MR. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet) said that he had never listened to a more extraordinary line of argument. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " his message in such a roundabout way, he opened fire on men who had no reasonable ground to expect the attack. [\"Hear, hear!\"] MR. JAMES LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet) said that he had never listened to a more extraordinary line of argument. [ Cheers. ] How was Admiral Harris to satisfy himself personally that the insurgents had received his warning? § MR. DILLON By sending one of his own officers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " LOWTHER (Kent, Thanet) said that he had never listened to a more extraordinary line of argument. [ Cheers. ] How was Admiral Harris to satisfy himself personally that the insurgents had received his warning? § MR. DILLON By sending one of his own officers. [ Cheers. ] 1049 MR. JAMES LOWTHER said that in that case the hon. Member would have at once asked whether the officer understood Greek. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ris to satisfy himself personally that the insurgents had received his warning? § MR. DILLON By sending one of his own officers. [ Cheers. ] 1049 MR. JAMES LOWTHER said that in that case the hon. Member would have at once asked whether the officer understood Greek. [ Cheers. ] The Admiral gave two written notes to the Greek Commodore. § MR. DILLON Why did he not send the British Consul? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "t case the hon. Member would have at once asked whether the officer understood Greek. [ Cheers. ] The Admiral gave two written notes to the Greek Commodore. § MR. DILLON Why did he not send the British Consul? [ Cheers. ] MR. JAMES LOWTHER said that Sir A. Biliotti had performed, at great personal risk, an act of the greatest gallantry, for which he had been sneered at by the hon. Gentleman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cheers, cries of \"Oh,\" and an HON. MEMBER, The devil quoting Scripture,\" followed by laughter.", "preceding_text": "ich he had been sneered at by the hon. Gentleman. [ Cheers. ] Sir.A. Biliotti's time was fully and nobly occupied, and it was most unreasonable to expect him to be employed in delivering these notes. But Admiral Harris did commit one slight indiscretion. He ignored what he should have known on high authority—that the Cretan chiefs might not always be persons whose word could be closely relied on. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Irish cheers.", "preceding_text": "closely relied on. [ Cheers, cries of \"Oh,\" and an HON. MEMBER, The devil quoting Scripture,\" followed by laughter. ] Mr. James Lowther went on to say that there was one thing which had come out clearly in the Debate. As the First Lord had told them, the \"women and children\" argument, which raiders were very fond of, was untrue in this case, as it was in another with which the House was familiar. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Cries of \"No!\"", "preceding_text": " no regard for the feelings of the Greek Commodore and the Cretans because they were Greeks? Commodore Reineck, in the most categorical and clear manner, to the satisfaction of The Times' Correspondent, and not by verbal expressions but by the strength of documents sent by the insurgent chiefs, had proved 1050 first of all that he had conveyed the message of Admiral Harris and the other Admirals. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ted out that the hon. Member for East Mayo had cast a greater aspersion upon Commodore, Reineck than Admiral Harris or anyone else. The hon. Member asked, Why did not Admiral Harris take steps to ascertain whether the message was delivered? For his own part he had been under the impression that if a brother officer and colleague and gentleman undertook to deliver a message, it would be delivered. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No; Cretans.\"", "preceding_text": "cussing this matter, should find it necessary to cast strong imputations upon everything connected with the Greek people and the Greek race. [\"No!\"] The Member for Sheffield had suggested as clearly as anybody could, without saying it directly, that Commodore Reineck had been guilty of mendacity, and the right hon. Member for Thanet had cast reflections on the character of the whole Greek people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ggested as clearly as anybody could, without saying it directly, that Commodore Reineck had been guilty of mendacity, and the right hon. Member for Thanet had cast reflections on the character of the whole Greek people. [HON. MEMBERS: \"No; Cretans.\"] Were not the Cretans Greeks? Did they not speak the Greek language? 1051 § LORD HUGH CECIL Does not the hon. Member speak the English language? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ommunicating with them. A very un- 1053 just attack had been made on Admiral Harris on this occasion, as on previous occasions; and when hon. Gentlemen found fault with the Admiral for communicating the information to a newspaper correspondent who visited him, let them remember the attacks they made night after night, not on the Government, but on the Admiral, for bombarding the Akrotiri heights. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "J. BAKER said there was another matter which caused a very great grievance in connection with the marking of parchments. A man might have served 19 years, during which his marks had been \"very good,\" but for his last year he only got a \"good\" mark. The penalty for that was that his pension was reduced to 8d. a day. He hoped the First Lord would look into that matter and devise some remedy for it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " add largely to the popularity of the service, and would induce men who now refused to enter for a second period to remain in the service. That, he would point out, would be an absolute saving to the Government, seeing that it cost £200 to train a man. Moreover, the men who re-entered formed a steady, reliable body of men, and the loss by the withdrawal of trained men could not be over-estimated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ng for a second period of service, 2d. a day should be given to them as it was given to men of the seamen class, and leading stokers asked for the a day after four years which petty officers received. He knew the enormous difficulty the Admiralty had with the stoker class, and he was sure that many of the obstacles in the way of their reentering would be removed by a slight addition to their pay. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "essing of character on parchment certificates. That might occur in regard to any rating in the Navy, and he could not give him an assurance that any alteration would be made in the direction he desired. It would be very difficult to make a distinction in the case of one particular rating, and it would certainly not be conducive to the maintenance of discipline or beneficial to the men themselves. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "s were even more favourable than those with regard to seamen. Of every 100 stokers who completed their first period of service, 72 per cent. re-engaged at once and 72 per cent after a short period on shore. Therefore there was no reason why the Admiralty should invite the country to go to any further expense, as the pay of the stokers seemed quite sufficient to attract the requisite class of men. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " that was created by this order among the local trading community, he thought the Admiralty might well be lenient in their application of it. Such leniency would not be followed by any harmful results. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY said that he could not admit that tradesmen in dockyard towns had any right to interfere in the smallest degree in questions which were matters of discipline. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "had any right to interfere in the smallest degree in questions which were matters of discipline. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The prosperity of these towns, he knew, depended largely on the expenditure in the dockyards, but when it was gravely suggested that such a question as whether plain clothes should be worn by seamen on shore ought to be decided by the local outfitters he thought the line must be drawn. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "place for men in the Navy to appear in a Sunday school, or church, or chapel, in uniform. The present system was not worked harshly, but generously, and it was the opinion of the Admiralty, as, indeed, of all naval men, that it was to the interest of the service generally that uniform should be worn in the dockyard towns, and they were not prepared to depart in any way from that general position. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "aring their uniform. He did not believe they were ashamed of their uniforms, but that, on the contrary, they were extremely proud of them. Again, it was an advantage that the naval uniform should be seen on shore. It was so little known that, when an officer came to London, people would fancy he was a railway servant, or something of that sort, and ask him what time the next train went to Exeter. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/mar/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/mar/19/navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "section": "navy-estimates-1897-8-1", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nd Gratuities.—Agreed to. § 15. £60,300, Additional Naval Force for Service in Australasian Waters. § SIR C. DILKE asked whether anything was being done to improve the cruisers on the Australian station. § THE FIRST LORD OF THE ADMIRALTY said it was proposed to gradually substitute other ships for those now employed on the station. The same course was being followed in other cases. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " permitted, statements of the agreement the Powers had come to, and had told the noble Lord absolutely everything I knew which the Powers had agreed to. I think, therefore, it is something of an outrage that the noble Lord should go down to Norwich and state there that, when he asked for a statement of policy, I had told him he must go, not to a Minister of the Crown, but to a Minister of France. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "hich the chief he served and the Government to which he belonged solemnly adopted and to which they put the name of England in 1856. [\"Hear!\"] It is only now that he has done it. He will tell me that the Sultan of Turkey has behaved very badly in the last two years, and I do not traverse that statement. I admit it to the full extent, and I deplore and condemn what has been done as much as he can. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": " his declaration of the policy solemnly declared by his Party and the Foreign Minister in whom they trusted, before Europe, and agreed to by England in the face of Europe, is to be given up because only during two years there have been actions on the part of the Turkish Government which deserve the deepest condemnation, I think the policy was either very lightly adopted or very lighted abandoned. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "at Norwich. I feel how heavy a blow the noble Lord has dealt at the policy of this country. Of course, I may say what I please, for I am only the holder of an office until such time as I vacate it, and when I vacate it, it will probably be held by a statesman who has pledged himself to disregard the solemn 1012 signature of England with regard to one of the most important treaties of the century. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": " it has been modified by them; no doubt it will be modified again. But this is the first time, as far as I know, that a man who has been Foreign Minister and will probably be Foreign Minister again, declares in the face of Europe that he will disregard the signature of his country, and, not with the consent of the other Powers, but in their face, will tear up the engagements to which he has come. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " man who has been Foreign Minister and will probably be Foreign Minister again, declares in the face of Europe that he will disregard the signature of his country, and, not with the consent of the other Powers, but in their face, will tear up the engagements to which he has come. [ Ministerial cheers. ] I feel bound, at all events, to separate myself as strongly as possible from that declaration. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "any aggravation—under circumstances of the gravest aggravation that could have taken place. In point of international law, Greece has not a shred of right to the island of Crete she has invaded—I say in point of international law, and the Powers of Europe appear as the defenders of international law, believing that unless it be respected the peace of the world is worth a very few years' purchase. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ome higher law, whose precise provisions I do not know, but by which what would have been a filibustering expedition in any other 1013 Power in this case is a righteous act, because of some superior obligation, I do not know where it comes from, but which is deduced by a subtle logic which I cannot follow from the fact that the battles of Thermopylæ and Salamis were fought 2,000 years ago. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "with the Monarchy to which it is attached; and other races, too, have in the distant past hopes and traditions of which they are proud, and to which the poets among them love to appeal. If the Thermopylæ and Salamis argument is to be taken into the law of Europe, it will not be only the Turkish Empire, it will not be only the Treaty of Paris which will be affected by such a novel doctrine. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "fact has been buried under the bad jokes to which the word has given rise. But the federated action of Europe—if we can maintain it, if we can maintain this Legislature—is our sole hope of escaping from the constant terror and the calamity of war, the constant pressure of the burdens of an armed peace which weigh down the spirits and darken the prospects of every nation in this part of the world. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ens of an armed peace which weigh down the spirits and darken the prospects of every nation in this part of the world. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The federation of Europe is the only hope we have; but that federation is only to be maintained by observing the conditions on which every Legislature must depend, on which every judicial system must be based—the engagements into which it enters must be respected. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "outside Power, whose motives it is not for me now to canvass, but which is no just subject for the eulogies that have been passed upon it. I think I may add that the maintenance of that federation of Europe will be increasingly difficult if every statesman who has retired from public life thinks it right to fling insults at the Sovereigns who occupy the principal thrones of 1014 Christian Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "isterial cheers. ] I think these are very grave matters, which should be submitted to your Lordships' House. I cannot cavil because the noble Lord chooses to entertain notions which are certainly eccentric amongst statesmen, and which are entirely novel in himself. But I do cavil at the time he has selected to reveal them, and at the mode he has adopted in order to enforce them on his countrymen. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ithout their authority, consecrated as it is by congresses the most solemn, by negotiations the most important, by events which should have pressed their value upon every mind, and having been, in the minds of some of the greatest statesmen we have had—statesmen not belonging to this side of the House—the foundation of European order, and of the policy which this country has consistently pursued. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "icy should be a treaty which, as I say, has been very often violated or treated as only a formula. I believe the time has come when it is the duty of men who think as I do to do their best to disconnect this country absolutely from that policy. My Lords, the fact is this—and I do not think the noble Marquess will differ front me—that the Turkish Empire is a standing danger to the peace of Europe. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "o say that our policy must be based permanently upon such obligations seems to me to be not only inconsistent with the interests of this country, but inconsistent with that which I hold with the noble Marquess, and as strongly as he does, as a matter of the most paramount importance to every State in 1019 Europe, and to this country as much or more than any other—namely, the maintenance of peace. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " does, as a matter of the most paramount importance to every State in 1019 Europe, and to this country as much or more than any other—namely, the maintenance of peace. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The noble Marquess knows as well as I do that there comes a time when circumstances make treaties worn out, and the wearing out of a treaty is shown when it is constantly violated, put aside, and treated as fiction. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/mar/19", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/mar/19/speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "section": "speech-by-lord-kimberley-at-norwich", "cue_text": "Opposition cheers.", "preceding_text": "in the Treaty or in the present situation of the world which should preclude anyone in my position from announcing, as I did announce and as I wish to announce, and to repeat, that I believe it is for the interest of this country and it is for the interest of European peace that we should be disconnected for ever from regarding the integrity of the Empire of Turkey as the basis of British policy. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/queens-diamond-jubilee", "section": "queens-diamond-jubilee", "cue_text": "A laugh.", "preceding_text": "t. George's, Hanover Square) Negotiations are proceeding with one of the companies, whose tender for the conveyance of visitors has been accepted, with a view to affording an opportunity of seeing the illuminations to the Members of both Houses who propose to attend the Naval Review, but the extra cost of such an arrangement would have to be borne by the Members who desired to prolong their stay. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/irish-chronicles-and-memorials", "section": "irish-chronicles-and-memorials", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "llections of historical documents are dealt with by the Historical Manuscripts Commission, who, I observe, are at work on the Ormonde papers and on the Acts of Queen Elizabeth's Privy Council in Ireland. The right hon. and learned Member may be interested to know that we have just bought for the Irish Record Office some State papers of about two centuries back at the sale of the Phillips library. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/south-kensington-museum", "section": "south-kensington-museum", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "me aware of the danger from fire, and whether they had continued to add to the collection thus exposed to danger? § THE FIRST LORD OF THE TREASURY (Mr. A. J. BALFOUR, Manchester, E.) In reference to the Question just put to me by my hon. Friend, I must ask for notice. With regard to the Questions on the Paper, I have to say that the Report is engaging the serious attention of the Government. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "y for us to meet on Monday the 14th, and go on with it then. That, I feel sure, would be very inconvenient, and I think it would be worth our while making a little extra effort next week in order to avoid that necessity. If we succeed in finishing the Committee stage before we separate for the holidays, I suggest we should not meet until Thursday, the 17th, and that then we should take up Supply. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nciple to other Departments of the Civil Service?\" The right hon. Gentleman went on to say that in spite of the fact that these men knew they were not going to have pensions, and that their salaries were fixed at a certain figure—which appeared to him to be very moderate—still plenty of men were willing to enter the service. Well, that argument, carried to its full extent, would justify sweating. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "laughter and \"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "h would then be supplied from Southampton. It was, therefore, undesirable to give them more than a small commission on that part of their work. The hon. Member found fault with the existing Survey because Littlestone was not found on the 1537 map. He could not account for the non-appearance of this place, but now that the hon. Member had gone to live there no doubt it would soon obtain notoriety. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nd of no consequence at all. The Government had not attempted to grapple with the financial grievances of Ireland, which remained unredressed. § MR. JOHN REDMOND (Waterford) said with all respect he could not take the view that they were not entitled to raise the question on this Vote. That seemed to be a proper and constitutional occasion for raising a grievance of which Ireland complained. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Irish cheers", "preceding_text": " that question cannot be raised upon Votes in Supply. It must be raised in Committee of Ways and Means. This is not the proper time to raise it. I hope the hon. Member will therefore not persist in continued irrelevancy. § MR. CLANCY I thought, and I still think, that to raise the question, in general terms, of the over-taxation of Ireland on every Vote was the most relevant thing I could do "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Order !\"", "preceding_text": "ber will therefore not persist in continued irrelevancy. § MR. CLANCY I thought, and I still think, that to raise the question, in general terms, of the over-taxation of Ireland on every Vote was the most relevant thing I could do [ Irish cheers ]—when we are called upon to contribute to the cost of English and Scottish services. And I must respectfully press my right to discuss this matter. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "loud Ministerial cries of \"Order !\"", "preceding_text": " to the cost of English and Scottish services. And I must respectfully press my right to discuss this matter. [ Ministerial cries of \"Order !\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS I understand the hon. Member desires to persist in disregarding the authority of the Chair. § MR. CLANCY I desire to say that I persist in discussing this question which is now before the House upon the grounds —"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Order !\"", "preceding_text": "stated, and I think— *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS I have already ruled that that is not a sufficient ground, and that the matter cannot be discussed in Supply. If the hon. Member persists in discussing it in Supply I must regard his conduct as grossly disorderly, and, under these 1542 circumstances, I must request him to withdraw from the House. § MR. CLANCY I consider the decision unjust—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Irish cheers and Ministerial cries of \"Order!\"", "preceding_text": "ot a sufficient ground, and that the matter cannot be discussed in Supply. If the hon. Member persists in discussing it in Supply I must regard his conduct as grossly disorderly, and, under these 1542 circumstances, I must request him to withdraw from the House. § MR. CLANCY I consider the decision unjust—[ Ministerial cries of \"Order !\"] —and I am not disposed to submit to injustice. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "es of \"Order !\"] —and I am not disposed to submit to injustice. [ Irish cheers and Ministerial cries of \"Order!\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS I have directed the hon. Member to withdraw from the House. Do I understand the hon. Member refuses to obey? § MR. CLANCY I do, Sir. *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS Then I must call on the Serjeant-at-Arms to enforce the order I gave. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "Irish cheers and Ministerial cries of \"Order!\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS I have directed the hon. Member to withdraw from the House. Do I understand the hon. Member refuses to obey? § MR. CLANCY I do, Sir. *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS Then I must call on the Serjeant-at-Arms to enforce the order I gave. [ Cheers. ] § MR. WILLIAM REDMOND Send for the Horse Guards! "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "County, N., who at once rose from his seat and left the House amid Nationalist cheers and Ministerial laughter. § MR. W. REDMOND rose, amid Ministerial laughter and Nationalist cheers, and said: On a point of order, Mr. Lowther, I desire to ask you whether it is in order for you to order the Serjeant-at-Arms to remove an hon. Member without having first asked the leave of the House to do so? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "onalist cheers and Ministerial laughter. § MR. W. REDMOND rose, amid Ministerial laughter and Nationalist cheers, and said: On a point of order, Mr. Lowther, I desire to ask you whether it is in order for you to order the Serjeant-at-Arms to remove an hon. Member without having first asked the leave of the House to do so? [ Cheers. ] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS Oh! yes, certainly. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Ministerial cheers.", "preceding_text": "MOND May I ask, Sir, on a further point of order, whether we are to understand that we are in this position—that at any time we are liable to be removed from the House by the Serjeant-at-Arms by an order from the Chair? *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS That depends on hon. Members. If hon. Members are disorderly in their conduct it is my duty to order them to withdraw under the Rules of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "cries of \"Order!\" and laughter", "preceding_text": "e are in this position—that at any time we are liable to be removed from the House by the Serjeant-at-Arms by an order from the Chair? *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS That depends on hon. Members. If hon. Members are disorderly in their conduct it is my duty to order them to withdraw under the Rules of the House. [ Ministerial cheers. ] § MR. W. REDMOND Well, Mr. Lowther, opinions may differ—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "cheers and cries of \"Order!\"", "preceding_text": ". If hon. Members are disorderly in their conduct it is my duty to order them to withdraw under the Rules of the House. [ Ministerial cheers. ] § MR. W. REDMOND Well, Mr. Lowther, opinions may differ—[ cries of \"Order!\" and laughter ]—as to what is disorderly conduct; but I think it is not only grossly disorderly, but grossly criminal, to rob a country and then gag its representatives—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "and laughter ]—as to what is disorderly conduct; but I think it is not only grossly disorderly, but grossly criminal, to rob a country and then gag its representatives—[ cheers and cries of \"Order!\"]—and order them out of the House when they simply raise their voice in order to enforce a demand which has 1543 been unanimously given utterance to throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Order, order!\"", "preceding_text": " given utterance to throughout the length and breadth of Ireland. [ Cheers. ] I certainly on this Vote now before the House desire to say that I take this opportunity, and shall take every opportunity, of objecting to the participation of Ireland in a single one of these Votes in the present circumstances. It has been abundantly proved that the Irish people are taxed altogether out of proportion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e present circumstances. It has been abundantly proved that the Irish people are taxed altogether out of proportion. [ Cries of \"Order, order!\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS I do not know whether it is really necessary for me to repeat what I have already ruled—that that question cannot be raised in Committee of Supply. There are other and proper opportunities for raising that question. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear! \"", "preceding_text": "repeat what I have already ruled—that that question cannot be raised in Committee of Supply. There are other and proper opportunities for raising that question. [\"Hear, hear!\"] All I have ruled this afternoon is that this is not a proper occasion for raising that question, and if the hon. Member persists in disregarding my ruling I am afraid I shall have to put the Standing Order in force. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "uling that applies to me, I must ask you to explain it. My point at the present time is that I object to this Vote because I object to the Irish people being called on to bear a share in these expenses, and I fail altogether to see—and I say go with great respect—how it is I am out of order in endeavouring to show why it is I object to the Irish people being called on to participate in this Vote. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Ministerial cries of \"Order, order !\"", "preceding_text": " it is I object to the Irish people being called on to participate in this Vote. [ Cheers. ] I do so because I think it is unjust to the Irish people, in view of the fact that it is perfectly well known to the House and this country that the Irish people are taxed more than they ought to be in proportion to the people of this country, and that, as a matter of fact, we are being robbed in Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "s a matter of fact, we are being robbed in Ireland. [ Ministerial cries of \"Order, order !\"] I do not know whether that is grossly disorderly or not, but I consider that I am but discharging a very simple duty to my constituents and the Irish people when I take this opportunity of protesting as strongly as I can against what is undoubtedly a system of robbery practised on the Irish people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "cries of \"Order !\" and cheers", "preceding_text": "#x0021;\"] I do not know whether that is grossly disorderly or not, but I consider that I am but discharging a very simple duty to my constituents and the Irish people when I take this opportunity of protesting as strongly as I can against what is undoubtedly a system of robbery practised on the Irish people. [ Cheers. ] In 1544 view of the Report of the Royal Commission on the financial relations—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "Scotch harbours and not enough on Irish harbours; but the question of the financial relations between Great Britain and Ireland cannot be discussed on this Vote. I think the hon. Member will see—on reflection it will be obvious to him—that it must be so, because otherwise the same question can be raised on every Vote, and that would clearly be against the ordinary rules and practice of the House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Loud laughter.", "preceding_text": "sed on every Vote, and that would clearly be against the ordinary rules and practice of the House. [\"Hear, hear!\"] Therefore that seems to me to be sufficient ground, amongst others, for saying that the question cannot be discussed now, and therefore I must ask the hon. Member to confine himself to the Vote. § MR. W. REDMOND I have listened to your ruling, Mr. Lowther, very patiently. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "e sufficient ground, amongst others, for saying that the question cannot be discussed now, and therefore I must ask the hon. Member to confine himself to the Vote. § MR. W. REDMOND I have listened to your ruling, Mr. Lowther, very patiently. [ Loud laughter. ] I think every patience is required by hon. Members who, if they say a word on behalf of their countrymen, are liable to be suspended. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "MOND I have listened to your ruling, Mr. Lowther, very patiently. [ Loud laughter. ] I think every patience is required by hon. Members who, if they say a word on behalf of their countrymen, are liable to be suspended. [ Cheers. ] Hon. Members opposite seem to think it is extremely amusing to see Irish Members interfered with in expressing what they consider to be the demands of their countrymen. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "ers opposite seem to think it is extremely amusing to see Irish Members interfered with in expressing what they consider to be the demands of their countrymen. [\"Hear, hear!\"] I should like very much to see English, Scotch, and Welsh Members labouring under the same grievance we are labouring under in this financial matter. Such treatment as we have received would not be meted out to them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "s for objecting to this Vote without going into the question of the relative taxation of Ireland and Great Britain. [ Cries of \"Hear, hear !\" and \"Order !\") *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS If that is so, the hon. Member will be disorderly, for he will be violating the ruling I have laid down. If the hon. Member persists in that course I shall have to put the Standing Order in force. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "ion of Ireland and Great Britain. [ Cries of \"Hear, hear !\" and \"Order !\") *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS If that is so, the hon. Member will be disorderly, for he will be violating the ruling I have laid down. If the hon. Member persists in that course I shall have to put the Standing Order in force. [ Cheers. ] § MR. W. REDMOND May I ask you, Mr. Lowther, in all seriousness— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "renewed laughter", "preceding_text": "ies of \"Hear, hear !\" and \"Order !\") *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS If that is so, the hon. Member will be disorderly, for he will be violating the ruling I have laid down. If the hon. Member persists in that course I shall have to put the Standing Order in force. [ Cheers. ] § MR. W. REDMOND May I ask you, Mr. Lowther, in all seriousness— [ laughter ]—upon my word and honour —"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Laughter, cheers, and cries of \"Order !\"", "preceding_text": "all seriousness— [ laughter ]—upon my word and honour —[ renewed laughter ]—it is extremely 1545 hard for Irish Members to take this treatment seriously—do I understand you to nay that I am grossly disorderly in simply referring to the relative taxation of Ireland and Great Britain? Because, if that is your ruling, all I can say is that it is like a ruling in one of Gilbert and Sullivan's operas. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "t seriously—do I understand you to nay that I am grossly disorderly in simply referring to the relative taxation of Ireland and Great Britain? Because, if that is your ruling, all I can say is that it is like a ruling in one of Gilbert and Sullivan's operas. [ Laughter, cheers, and cries of \"Order !\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS The hon. Member is grossly disorderly in his last remark. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ly in his last remark. [ Cheers. ] My ruling is not to the effect quoted by the hon. Member. My ruling is that the hon. Member is not entitled on the present occasion to discuss the question of the financial relations of Great Britain and Ireland. If he cannot state his objections to this Vote without discussing that question, there is no necessity for him to state them, and he can remain silent. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " not entitled on the present occasion to discuss the question of the financial relations of Great Britain and Ireland. If he cannot state his objections to this Vote without discussing that question, there is no necessity for him to state them, and he can remain silent. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If, however, he persists in stating them, and bringing that question in, I shall have to take some steps. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Order !\" and cheers", "preceding_text": "ut discussing that question, there is no necessity for him to state them, and he can remain silent. [\"Hear, hear!\"] If, however, he persists in stating them, and bringing that question in, I shall have to take some steps. [ Cheers. ] § MR. W. REDMOND On the question of whether it is necessary for me to state my objections or not, I beg leave to state that you really are not the judge. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": "eers. ] § MR. W. REDMOND On the question of whether it is necessary for me to state my objections or not, I beg leave to state that you really are not the judge. [ Cries of \"Order !\" and cheers ] I am, after all, sent here to say what may be considered necessary, in the opinion of my constituents, and not in the opinion of either the Chairman of Committees or the Speaker of this House—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Laud cries of \"Order\"", "preceding_text": " after all, sent here to say what may be considered necessary, in the opinion of my constituents, and not in the opinion of either the Chairman of Committees or the Speaker of this House—[ cheers ]— and at the risk of being considered disorderly, I do say it is adding insult to injury to say not only that we are over taxed, but when we attempt to say so, we are practically gagged and subjected to "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "eers ]— and at the risk of being considered disorderly, I do say it is adding insult to injury to say not only that we are over taxed, but when we attempt to say so, we are practically gagged and subjected to [ Laud cries of \"Order\"] *THE CHAIRMAN OF WAYS AND MEANS The hon. Member is now grossly disorderly, and I must request him to withdraw from the House for the remainder of this day's sitting. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " for many years past the Irish Members had been complaining of the want of funds for the repair of various harbours in Ireland. It was well-known that many harbours in Ireland were in a very unsatisfactory state. The hon. Member proceeded: I have no intention whatever of taking up the time of the House, but I do protest as one who takes an interest in the financial relations of the two countries. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "cheers", "preceding_text": " proceeded: I have no intention whatever of taking up the time of the House, but I do protest as one who takes an interest in the financial relations of the two countries. [ Laughter. ] Hon. Members may laugh, but this is an exceedingly serious question to the Irish people. I have no wish to run counter to the Rules of the House or to dispute your ruling, Sir; but I claim the right of free speech—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Order !\" and cheers.", "preceding_text": "ous question to the Irish people. I have no wish to run counter to the Rules of the House or to dispute your ruling, Sir; but I claim the right of free speech—[ cheers ]— in a matter on which I believe the majority of my countrymen agree with me; and I challenge any Gentleman who represents a Unionist constituency to deny that the majority of the people of Ireland believe that they are overtaxed. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Cries of \"Order !\"", "preceding_text": "cently given. I hope he will not force me to put the Standing Order in force. I have had to do it in the case of some of his colleagues, and I warn him that if he persists in the course he is pursuing I shall have to do so in his case § MR. FIELD I am exceedingly sorry, but I consider it my duty to obey what I believe to be the opinion of the majority of my countrymen, that we are overtaxed— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "e set forth by the hon. Member? It seemed that this harbour of refuge at Peterhead was to cost close on a million sterling. He was told by an hon. Member sitting near him that the sum so far expended on the work was £297,000. Therefore the argument was because you had spent £297,000 on a useless work, you must spend £000,000 more for fear the £297,000 should be wasted. Was there ever such logic t "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": "f the money of the British taxpayer, and although his own contribution to the revenue of this great Empire was extremely small, still he gave it with a most grudging hand. It was but a small amount of income tax that it was his privilege to pay—he wished it was a great deal more; but he gave it with a grudging hand, and he objected to a portion of that income tax being spent on Peterhead Harbour. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-i", "section": "class-i", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "eakwater was at that time approaching conclusion, and there was not a sufficient field for convict labour. The claims of Dover were urged in rivalry with those of Peterhead, and the Scotch Members, who were rather pertinacious in supporting the rights of their country, maintained that the harbour should be at Peterhead, and that Scotland should supply criminals for the purpose of constructing it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "been published that morning in its Report on the loss of life at sea, which reflected marked credit on the Department. That Report had given the fullest details in admirable form, accompanied by several maps of a most artistic and useful character. § MR. RITCHIE said his hon. Friend the Member for Lynn Regis was always rather severe in his criticisms, but he did not always mean what he said. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "eased. § MR. WEIR asked whether and portion of the £800 which had been spent in fees and expenses under the Conciliation Act of 1896 had been spent in respect of the Penrhyn quarries dispute. He noticed that £2,800 was asked for the Light Railways Commission, and he wished to know if any of the light railways were in progress. He thought the salary of the right hon. Gentleman was inadequate— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "y were bringing forward a Bill in the House of Commons; but he thought they were acting ministerially on local initiative. If the hon. Member had mentioned that there had been a conference at the Board of Trade on the subject he would have said what he now said—that he would make inquiries as to what took place with a view of endeavouring to see if anything could be done in the direction desired. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "A laugh.", "preceding_text": "nce at the Board of Trade on the subject he would have said what he now said—that he would make inquiries as to what took place with a view of endeavouring to see if anything could be done in the direction desired. [\"Hear, hear!\"] The hon. Member for Islington thought he was not sufficiently severe on the railway companies. He should like to know what the view of the railway companies was. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "talked about his not being sufficiently severe to the railway companies, he must remember that most of what they could do was by way of persuasion. With regard to the matter of the maps, he had already said that he thought it a matter of great importance to the trading community that they should be published as they were before, and he had every hope that the railway companies would accede to it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ich reference had been made by the same hon. Member and by the hon. Member for Battersea. The latter had referred to the fact that he had during the strike made some representations to the railway companies. He confessed that he had some sympathy with the cabmen in the effort they made to get rid of the disability under which they laboured. He had a soft corner in his heart for the London cabmen. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "nder which they laboured. He had a soft corner in his heart for the London cabmen. [\"Hear, hear!\"] They sometimes heard him much abused, though not so much in recent years as of old; but, as far as he was concerned, he had rarely mot with a case of incivility in a cabman; on the contrary, he had often had occasion to be very much satisfied with the way in which he had been treated by them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "He knew that the Home Office endeavoured to bring about a settlement; and he was glad to hear from the hon. Member for Battersea that there was a disposition on the part of the railway companies, now that the strike was over and the battle won, to give terms that would be acceptable to the cabmen. If he could do anything to assist to that end, he should be glad if his good offices were available. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "y way and the Bill was withdrawn. The railway was to have cost £400,000. Application for the same line was made to the Light Railway Commissioners, and after a two hours' inquiry the scheme was passed; and the whole cost of the line and expenses, instead of £400,000, would now be only £60,000. That alone was a sufficient indication of the enormous advantage that was likely to accrue from the Act. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "f young trees of good descriptions of vintage fruit would be well justified, inasmuch as such trees can readily be obtained at reasonable prices through the ordinary trade channels.— I am, Sir, your obedient servant, § (Signed)\" T. H. ELLIOT, Secretary. § \"E. D. Till, Esq., § Priory, Eynsford, Dartford. § Sympathy was always largely kept in stock in the Government Departments— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " to be referred by this Department to fruit tree growers or dealers from whom you could obtain good specimens of young cider apple trees. I am to say that the Board do not see their way to depart from their practice of abstaining from selecting or recommending particular persons or firms.\" 1581 § The Board, therefore, took a month to state what the established practice of the Department was. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " established practice\" of the Department. His friend, sending him the above letter, wrote: — § \"I enclose the reply of the Hoard of Agriculture. They abstain from recommending particular persons or firms! A rich excuse for ignorance.\" § When people applied to him for information as to where they could get good cider—as the Chairman of Committees lately did him the honour of doing—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter", "preceding_text": "have adopted some such plan as that. The only explanation was that when the Board made the statement they had no foundation whatever for it. On last Monday he received a letter from a Mr. Gray, an official in the British Consulate at Christiania—apparently a very intelligent and able young man. He hoped he would not injure the young man's chances of promotion by slating those facts in his favour. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "arently a very intelligent and able young man. He hoped he would not injure the young man's chances of promotion by slating those facts in his favour. [ Laughter ]. This gentleman told him that a person of some importance at Christiania—in fact, a member of the body which in Norway corresponded with Parliament—was desirous of trying English cider. He had tried Norwegian cider, and did not like it."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "e young man's chances of promotion by slating those facts in his favour. [ Laughter ]. This gentleman told him that a person of some importance at Christiania—in fact, a member of the body which in Norway corresponded with Parliament—was desirous of trying English cider. He had tried Norwegian cider, and did not like it.[ Laughter. ] But he was about to give a political dinner to his constituents—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "r ]. This gentleman told him that a person of some importance at Christiania—in fact, a member of the body which in Norway corresponded with Parliament—was desirous of trying English cider. He had tried Norwegian cider, and did not like it.[ Laughter. ] But he was about to give a political dinner to his constituents—[ laughter ]—so that Members of Parliament had their trials there as well as lure—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " a director of agriculture, accompanied by a Canadian horticulturist, to Russia, where in one of the coldest provinces, the Province of kasan, they found not only varieties of apple, pear, and plum trees which could be cultivated with profit in the cold climate of Iowa, but also forest trees which would give these fruit trees the necessary shelter. That was the proper sort of Board of Agriculture—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "y useful information with regard to apple growing and eider making. He had a small matter which he wished to bring before the President of the Board of Agriculture, and it was this—he wished to ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he could not issue some circulars to the farmers in the west of England, not to induce them to plant fresh trees but to take care of the apple trees which they had got. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\" and laughter.", "preceding_text": "urers as to the best known methods of preserving their trees. This was a small but a very important matter, and he hoped the President of the Board of Agriculture would turn his attention to it. In the west of England the farmers thought very highly of Mr. Walter Long, and his name had a power greater than that of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or the Secretary to the Treasury, or anybody else. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "the serious loss incurred by farmers in the West of England by the depredations of rats. He had a valuable suggestion to make to the President of the Board of Agriculture. There was a little animal indigenous to Ireland—the Irish terrier—which was the best rat-killer in the world, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could do something to adjust the financial relations between Ireland and England—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "e. There was a little animal indigenous to Ireland—the Irish terrier—which was the best rat-killer in the world, and perhaps the right hon. Gentleman could do something to adjust the financial relations between Ireland and England—[ laughter ]—by spending some money in encouraging the breed of Irish terriers and sending the dogs to those parts of the West of England which were infested with rats. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Renewed laughter.", "preceding_text": "ething to adjust the financial relations between Ireland and England—[ laughter ]—by spending some money in encouraging the breed of Irish terriers and sending the dogs to those parts of the West of England which were infested with rats. [ Laughter. ] If the right hon. Gentleman were willing to adopt that suggestion he could give the names of several breeders of the best rat-killers in the world. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "rs which brought Canadian and American cattle to this country, and steamers which carried cattle between Ireland and England, they could not fail to be struck by the difference of the accommodation provided in the two eases. The Irish cattle traffic would never be satisfactory until some Government Department insisted that cattle boats should be cattle boats, and passenger boats passengers boats. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "A laugh", "preceding_text": "heir demand for £80,000 should be agreed to at present. Last year the Government gave a sum of £2,000,000 to the agriculturists, and surely that should suffice for some little time. From rates to rats was an easy transition, and he was sorry to hear that rats were making such depredations in the West of England. He thought the best thing would be to issue an order that all rats should be muzzled. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "means. But he saw no evidence of any such practical difficulty. For instance, the work done by the hon. Member for Midlothian without Government assistance was of the greatest possible value to his brother agriculturists, and reflected the greatest credit upon him. Pending the Report of the Royal Commission, he was not prepared to suggest that any definite steps should be taken by his Department. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "w that it was no easy matter to satisfy British agriculturists on any particular question; but he was quite certain of this, that if the Government conducted experimental farms with a view to showing farmers how to farm their laud, the practical result would be that every agriculturist in the House or out of it would tell them that \"whatever they did know, they did not know how to cultivate land\"—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "Cheers", "preceding_text": "riculturists of foreign countries. Take any kind of produce—potatoes, cheese, butter, crops of all kinds—take them either in quality, size, or general character —the British agriculturist had always more than held his own. That had been due, not to Government experiments or Government interference, but it was the result entirely of his own energy and initiative, and the risking of his own capital."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "n any sense the duty of a Government Department to supply the public with the names of shops where they could get an article of the best character. Further than that, he could not conceive anything more undesirable or more to be avoided than that a Government Department should identify themselves with the advertisements of particular wares or manufactures, or of shops where these could be bought. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/class-ii", "section": "class-ii", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " the transit of cattle as to secure that they were carried humanely, and also delivered in a condition that would insure their commanding the best prices. The right hon. Member for the Forest of Dean had mentioned certain matters of detail in connection with the muzzling of sheep dogs. The mailer should have his attention, and he hoped soon to be able to communicate with the right hon. Gentleman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1897/may/28", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1897/may/28/whitsuntide-holidays", "section": "whitsuntide-holidays", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "made such inquiries as I can in different quarters, and I find that on the one hand there is a strong objection to suspending the Twelve o'clock Rule, and that, on the other hand, there is a general desire to get through the work of the Committee stage of the Workmen (Compensation for Accidents) Bill as soon as possible. Under these circumstances I do not propose to take any steps on Monday next. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": " President of the National Gallery, but that gentleman could not be ubiquitous, and supposing several possessors of art treasures were to die at the same time, how could he be expected to value their collections and to ascertain their historic or national interest? Such a system of administration must break down. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, whose disposition officially was naturally grasping—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " heartburning, and as the proposal was so reasonable, he hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer might be inclined to accede it. If he could obtain an expression of opinion among their Lordships, he would certainly go to a Division. Pictures, manuscripts, and scientific collections were not only very valuable, but they were a glory to the country and a source of pride to the people of England. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "their Lordships, he would certainly go to a Division. Pictures, manuscripts, and scientific collections were not only very valuable, but they were a glory to the country and a source of pride to the people of England. [ Cheers. ] 1493 THE EARL OF LEVEN AND MELVILLE said that the pictures which were in our family galleries had been to a great extent largely enjoyed by the public during many years. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "laughter .", "preceding_text": "000, and whose income had been reduced from £10,000 a year to £5,000 or £6,000. This man might have a family of several sons, and he could not run the risk of leaving his heirs to pay the heavy duties which might become due on the parent's death. The case of this man was aggravated by the uncertainty which existed, or, as one man remarked, \"No one knows what he will have to pay until he is dead.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "to pay until he is dead.\" [ laughter .] If an owner could send a list of pictures to the Treasury for examination he might be able to learn. It was this element of uncertainty which drove away many of the pictures which might otherwise remain in the country. The estimate which the highest authority had given him of pictures that had gone abroad since the passing of the Act of 1894 was £3,500,000. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "laughter .", "preceding_text": "n said: — Because I am offered this large sum. I cannot expose my heir to the risk of the enormous duty he may have to pay; it is far better for me to send it away than to sell it in this country. If you sell a picture in this country, one says. 'Poor soul, he is in rather a bad way, he is selling his pictures'; but if I send them abroad no one knows anything about it. and my heirs are free. 1494 "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "\" Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ources of income and revenue to the inheritors, when that which was 1496 inherited could only be of use through the inheritor devoting himself, as the creator of the collection had devoted himself, to the public good and for the advancement of science. He thought it would be exceedingly bad and in every way undesirable that a duty anything more than merely nominal should be charged in such cases. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": " the creator of the collection had devoted himself, to the public good and for the advancement of science. He thought it would be exceedingly bad and in every way undesirable that a duty anything more than merely nominal should be charged in such cases. [\" Hear, hear!\"] THE EARL OF CRAWFORD said the treasure house of England was the stalking horse of the foreign dealer at the present time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "lay in private hands in England. There was greater wealth in this country than in any other in private hands. These dealers, these seekers to purchase objects of beauty and of value, nailed these Death Duties with delight, because they felt that it was certain that in course of time these objects would fall into their possession. He should suggest that all such objects should not be taxed at all. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": " interested. The MSS. and books were sent all over Europe; at present some were on their way to the Imperial Government of Austria, and others would shortly go to the Imperial Government of Germany. He hoped an appeal would be made which would result in freeing these objects from liabilities which must end in their dispersal, and he could only add that the case which he had mentioned was his own. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "\"Hear, hear!\"", "preceding_text": "ntleman called Rossetti to visit and estimate the value of pictures, the object being, if possible, to raise the aggregate amount so that duty could be charged on the higher scale. § THE LORD PRIVY SEAL (Viscount CROSS) I am sure that every Member of the House will be grateful to the noble Lord for bringing forward this Motion, because the matter is of the greatest importance to the country. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "laughter .", "preceding_text": " the House and rely upon the assurance of the Chancellor of the Exchequer that he will give as extended an interpretation of the Act as it is possible to give it. § *EARL STANHOPE said the answer of the Lord Privy Seal was in a great measure satisfactory, but he would like to obtain the opinion of the House on his Motion. They had been told that if they had grievances they ought to air them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "laughter .", "preceding_text": " of national, scientific, or historic interest. § VISCOUNT CROSS said he really thought the noble Earl might leave the matter in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and if his noble Friend found that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not carry out everything he (Viscount Cross) had said he could again bring forward his Motion. VI.SCOUNT CLIFDEN Yes, but meanwhile Rome is burning. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/finance-acts-works-of-art", "section": "finance-acts-works-of-art", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "he matter in the hands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer; and if his noble Friend found that the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not carry out everything he (Viscount Cross) had said he could again bring forward his Motion. VI.SCOUNT CLIFDEN Yes, but meanwhile Rome is burning. [ laughter .] The noble Lord says we should trust the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Not where if is a matter of taxation, "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "lords/1897/may/28", "house": "lords", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/lords/1897/may/28/light-railways-act", "section": "light-railways-act", "cue_text": "laughter .", "preceding_text": "local authorities were the sole promoters. They could not give those Returns, therefore, because they had not got them. THE EARL OF CAMPERDOWN said he understood from the Light Railway Commissioners that it would be at all events easy to ask the promoters to give such Returns. § VISCOUNT CROSS did not think there would be any objection to ask for them, but they could not promise to get them. "}