{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/apr/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/apr/10/clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "section": "clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": " an officer not being cashiered, but being imprisoned instead. § Mr. O'GRADY I quite agree that to cashier an officer is a very strong punishment, but it is not quite the class of punishment as is made out by the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir F. Banbury). Everyone knows that, although it moans ostracism from public life in England, in the Colonies that kind of treatment does not count for much. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/apr/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/apr/10/clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "section": "clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"", "preceding_text": "out to the officer as compared with the soldier. We do not say that that is the case, but simply that the common private is to be discharged with ignominy, whereas the officer is to be cashiered without any reference to ignominy at all. § Viscount VALENTIA An officer cannot be cashiered without ignominy. § Mr. KEIR HARDIE Of a certain kind. Can the soldier be dismissed without ignominy? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/apr/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/apr/10/clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "section": "clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": "private is to be discharged with ignominy, whereas the officer is to be cashiered without any reference to ignominy at all. § Viscount VALENTIA An officer cannot be cashiered without ignominy. § Mr. KEIR HARDIE Of a certain kind. Can the soldier be dismissed without ignominy? [HON. MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"] How can he? Does not ignominy attach to dismissal? Is not one case the same as the other? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/apr/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/apr/10/clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "section": "clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"He does know.\"", "preceding_text": "Army ought to be—if we have an Army at all—respected by all classes. It ought not to be regarded as belonging to one class as against another. The Amendment suggests that the recruits should have an option. You put out gay bills asking for recruits for the Army. When a man goes in response to that invitation surely he ought to be able to know what he is being enlisted for and what are his duties. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/apr/10", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/apr/10/clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "section": "clause-5-amendment-of-section-145-of", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"They are worse.\"", "preceding_text": ", and we want to know, if the Army (Annual) Bill is passed without this Amendment, whether the soldiers can be so employed. § Mr. LANSBURY In reply to what the hon. Member for Kennington (Mr. Stephen Collins) said, I wish to point out that I did not say that this Government is any worse or any better than any other Government in regard to their action against trade unionists during a strike. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/consolidated-fund-appropriation-bill", "section": "consolidated-fund-appropriation-bill", "cue_text": "Interruption.", "preceding_text": "taxpayers—it is as much their property as the watch in my pocket is my property—when Ministers find that they are detected in this illegality, and the question of its distribution comes on, then apparently this £6,500,000 may be gifted away to one Member or another, according to the favouritism of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. I should liked to have been present at that famous Cabinet Council. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/consolidated-fund-appropriation-bill", "section": "consolidated-fund-appropriation-bill", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " nothing about Grants. We have granted hundreds of millions of money all over the shop in the last forty years, I am not asking about Grants; I am asking about loans, and loans alone. That is the only point in connection with this money for Uganda which is pretended to be a loan. To quote a Grant to me in support of what is now being done is to quote an absurdity. I have never asked about Grants. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/port-of-london-strike-1", "section": "port-of-london-strike-1", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": " 2375 happens to be so very bad, perhaps he will, under the circumstances, kindly look at the questions I have put to him and the answers he has given. He will find that the expression I referred to was used by him in reply to a question put by me. With regard to these unfortunate free labourers, they are men who are desirous of working and providing food and raiment for their wives and children. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/port-of-london-strike-1", "section": "port-of-london-strike-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Leave him alone.\"", "preceding_text": "because I was busy elsewhere, and that the purport of Mr. Houlder's visit to me had already been dealt with seven hours before by the Chief Commissioner of Police, who had transacted business with the Port of London Authority, which was the right authority to deal with in the matter. These are the hon. Gentleman's two charges against me. After ten weeks that is all the evidence he can accumulate. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/port-of-london-strike-1", "section": "port-of-london-strike-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"It was right in the dock.\"", "preceding_text": " is necessary, at any rate, so far as I can go while the case is still sub judice, that a statement should be made by me in order to remove any impression hon. Members might have that there was no answer to the charge. What happened yesterday at the Victoria Dock must not be taken as an isolated fact. Between six and seven in the morning there had been a most serious disturbance at the same dock. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh,\"", "preceding_text": "pportunities for discusing the last two Budgets. But the last Budget but one was closured. The last Budget was disposed of in the closing days of a Session which lasted till December, and its discussion was then brought to a rapid and abrupt termination by an understanding between the two sides of the House in connection with other business and what I think I may almost say was a misunderstanding—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO, no.\"", "preceding_text": "en summoned. The right hon. Gentleman has complained that we are taking the Bill late. He knows perfectly well that we had half a day on Friday—we had five hours. § Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN Half a day in the Standing Orders. § Mr. LLOYD GEORGE We had five hours, and that is, as a matter of fact, more than half a day. He says we are taking it at half-past eleven o'clock. We had five hours. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": " insist on the accuracy of my memory. I believe the only one occasion on which I kept the House up very late was when we sat from three o'clock one day till four o'clock the next afternoon, and I have very good 2412 reason for remembering that. But what were the circumstances precedent to that long sitting? That Budget had been not merely opposed, but obstructed openly and grossly at every stage. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "being destroyed. It is because the Chancellor of the Exchequer is cornered in the 2422 § Law Courts that this question now arises. If the people who pay Income Tax, and, more particularly, Supertax, while they are paying and contributing in this manner to the expenses of the country have by their own industry and prudence enabled themselves to pay these taxes, surely the right hon. Gentleman—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO, no.\"", "preceding_text": "ndment goes very much further than the proposal upon which he really wishes to take the judgment of the Committee. The omission of the words he proposes to leave out would have the effect of destroying all the machinery of the Super-tax. The hon. and learned Gentleman himself admitted that the Super-tax is a fair tax and he said there was no complaint on the part of those who are subjected to it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": " 2435 realise. It means that the estate of a person who has not made a return before death must be liable to pay Super-tax up to the date of death in the same way as if there had been a return. I cannot redress this grievance in an equitable manner—in a manner, that is to say, equitable to the Exchequer as well as to the subject—without having a Resolution. That I cannot do at the present moment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "section": "clause-2-income-tax-for-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Agreed.\"", "preceding_text": "r boarding-school, in these circumstances is not a dwelling house at all, and that the proper way of dealing with it is to deduct from the profits the whole of the rent of the premises. But on the other hand there is added to the profits a sum equal to the value of the accommodation which is reserved by the proprietor for himself, the whole accommodation, whether including lodging, food or board. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/aug/01", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/aug/01/new-clause-exemption-from-income-tax-of", "section": "new-clause-exemption-from-income-tax-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO\"", "preceding_text": " effect of this Amendment is to exempt the insurance companies acting as approved societies under this Act. I do not wish to say a word against the insurance companies, but, in point of fact, there is no doubt in the mind of anybody that though they are practically prohibited from making a profit by the operations under the Insurance Act , they unquestionably are going to make a very large profit—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/established-church-wales-bill-2", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-2", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Secular purposes\"", "preceding_text": "tating the redemption on an equitable basis of the tithe rent-charge in Wales and Monmouthshire dealt with by the Bill. So long as these tithes were paid to the Church there was no pressure, certainly from the Noble Lord the Member for the Hitchin Division (Lord Robert Cecil) to facilitate redemption, but now that these tithes are to be paid to the community for educational and religious purposes—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/established-church-wales-bill-2", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-2", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " he had no compunction in saying that the Disestablishment of the Welsh Church was only first in the order of precedence. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has used words almost to the same effect. I am one of those who say that the tithe question is at the bottom of the agitation against the Welsh Church. It is really the demagogues, if I may say so, of the type of the Chancellor of the Exchequer— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "extended to twelve months by Order in Council. Why cannot the Government allow it to be extended to whatever length of lime is found necessary? We are not asking for anything unreasonable; we simply ask for time. The Home Secretary is the most sanguine man on earth. He told us that, first of all, he hoped the Bill would pass this year. He then said that the new body could be constituted in a day. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Of the Endowments?\"", "preceding_text": "sh Church were very great. You took away about half of them. You left the Church in Ireland more money, a good deal, than the Church of Wales has got now. If this Bill passes, and Disendowment is carried out in the way you suggest, whereby you take away two-thirds of the Endowments of the Church in Wales—I am taking the figures given by the Home Secretary, who is going to leave us 6s. 8d. in the £"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Why not?\"", "preceding_text": "ch is no longer to be represented in Convocation. He seems to forget he answered 2547 questions on this subject between the time of the First and Second Reading. I bombarded him from day to day with questions and I discovered that the Church is not going to be constituted merely under a representative body, there is to be a sort of bifurcated system. The Synod is suddenly going to be given power. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "l feel themselves bound to yield to the demand for a reasonable time for bringing this Bill into operation in order that the continuity of the existence of the work of the Church in Wales may not be broken. As I said I do not think that what is proposed to be done can be fully appreciated. Take the case of the parochial life of the Church in Wales. That is suddenly by a stroke to be extinguished. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "laughter", "preceding_text": "of the Church of England, but if it is a real membership, if it carries with it either responsibilities or privileges, and the right hon. Gentleman appreciates them, his sympathy ought to go out to people face to face with what they regard as a catastrophe to a Church to which they are devoted, he ought to see that if this blow is to fall it should not produce the detestable result of lopping off—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Six months.\"", "preceding_text": " back to a spirit of reasonable and moderate discussion on this Amendment. I understand the proposal is that after the Act is passed two years shall be allowed to elapse before the Statute really comes into operation. The Home Secretary has already made a concession by the Amendment on the Paper, which I suppose will be moved, to extend the period before the Act comes into force to twelve months. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": " that there is a great deal which these Endowments do besides paying the salary of the local incumbent, and if you take away the Endowments you have to provide money for the other purposes to which they are now applied. § 7.0 P.M. § Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITH I do not know whether the Noble Lord means the £14,000 for the Curates Sustentation Fund. Of course, the Church gets that under the Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "have all these facts, and that, so far as figures are concerned, no substantial time is necessary to make any preparation, so far as Disendowment is concerned. A word upon the Disestablishment point. When we say Disestablishment, an hon. Member says, do not forget dismemberment, but it is no worse, because you repeat the same objection in two forms. They are the two names given to the same thing. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "not forget dismemberment, but it is no worse, because you repeat the same objection in two forms. They are the two names given to the same thing. [HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"] If you look at it from the Welsh point of view it is Disestablishment, and if you look at it from the English point of view it is dismemberment. You cannot Disestablish the Church in Wales without, in a sense, 2562 dismembering it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBEBS: \"He might put a bad sixpence.\"", "preceding_text": "k him for what he stated at least three times, that this Bill was not going to Disestablish the Church in Wales. § Viscount WOLMER I did not say anything of the sort. I said it was going to Disestablish, and then re-establish. § Mr. KING That is what I mean, of course. If a man takes six pennies out of one of my pockets and puts the sixpenny piece into the other, what is the difference? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"How do you know?\"", "preceding_text": "You lose your money. § Mr. KING The Church then exists for money and not for spiritual purposes! The real fact of the matter is, what we have often thought in this Committee and in this House before, that those few keen hon. Members on the opposite side, a small band, a devoted band, and I will say a very energetic band, who oppose this Bill do not represent the rank and file of their party. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBEBS: \"Why not?\"", "preceding_text": "h in Ireland was on any footing of inferiority with other Churches. That was the sole argument I adduced. I felt it was a respectful argument and, in reply to the speech made, that it was a complete argument. Now the right hon. Gentleman brings forward an entirely 2593 different case. He says that these words are intended to call from the Government an elucidation of their views on Establishment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"You do not know what it means.\"", "preceding_text": "fferent view as to the meaning of Establishment. What the meaning of Establishment may be, or what precise meaning you give to the relationship between the members of this Church of the origin of that relationship, has nothing to do with the question as to whether that relationship which existed should cease to exist, and, whatever the Establishment may be, this Bill proposes to put an end to it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": " Crown, on the recommendation of the Prime Minister. I understand that is one of the principal marks of Establishment. The highest officers of the Church are appointed on the recommendation of a gentleman who may or may not be a member of that Church. Secondly, I understand that by virtue of the Establishment the Church in Wales enjoys the possession of a considerable amount of national property. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": "pecially if you please, by your Bill; put it in words, and we will deal with it. If that is your object, I do not believe you attain it by general words such as these, destroying the establishment. My object in saying that is to beg the Committee to be quite clear about what they are doing. The effect of these words may be, and perhaps is, to destroy the connection between the State and religion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": "in words, and we will deal with it. If that is your object, I do not believe you attain it by general words such as these, destroying the establishment. My object in saying that is to beg the Committee to be quite clear about what they are doing. The effect of these words may be, and perhaps is, to destroy the connection between the State and religion. [HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"] Is that what you want? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "ch which exists on the voluntary contributions given by their congregations, and that to have Endowments was to stereotype views which might not be honestly entertained by those who were deriving advantage from the Endowments. That is the old position. But it is absolutely changed now. Every Nonconformist body of importance realises the impossibility of ministering to the poor without Endowments. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "ons, and that to have Endowments was to stereotype views which might not be honestly entertained by those who were deriving advantage from the Endowments. That is the old position. But it is absolutely changed now. Every Nonconformist body of importance realises the impossibility of ministering to the poor without Endowments. [HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"] Yes, that is the opinion of Nonconformist bodies. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "e two great bodies—the Established Church in Scotland and the United Free Church—have by consent ruled out from their discussions all violations of the Endowments of either. They commenced their great negotiations by ruling out that subject altogether as inadmissible. Then they go on to discuss, and discuss in the most friendly and definite way, how they can unite again in one Established Church— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": " and I am willing to abrogate it, because I do not want to be a member of a Church of which it can be urged we have privileges which do not belong to any other religions bodies in this country. Let me put the other side of the case. If the hon. Member for Ipswich had been a clergyman of the Church of England, instead of minister of a Nonconformist body, he could not have had a seat in this House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"What about the bishops?\"", "preceding_text": "ay that there was some line drawn which put a minister who was not a minister of the Church in England in an inferior position. I deny that altogether; but the very moment I take a test which we all know, namely, where there is a privilege or obligation as regards this House, the privilege is for the Nonconformist minister, and the duty and disability is on the clergymen of the Church of England. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Congregational.\"", "preceding_text": "e the two dismembered portions of the same Church under different ritual, different rites, different services—in every respect different if you take any religious test as regards continuity in the life of a religious community. I will put this to the hon. Member for Ipswich (Mr. Silvester Horne). I forget for the moment to which denomination he belongs, whether the Wesleyan or the Congregational. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"They have the power.\"", "preceding_text": "e moment to which denomination he belongs, whether the Wesleyan or the Congregational. [HON. MEMBERS: \"Congregational.\"] I do not speak in disparagement of either one or the other. What would he say if by coercion you separated the Congregationalists in Wales from the Congregationalists in England, and gave them power to adopt ritual, rites, and services wholly inconsistent with those in England? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"They have the power now.\"", "preceding_text": "ose you have one Nonconformist community in England and Wales with one government, one ritual, and one service. That being their desire, aim, and object, what would any hon. Member opposite say if by coercion you prevented that continuity of religious life from going on and put it in the power of one portion of the community to separate itself, as regards ritual and so on, from the other portion? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "Interruption.", "preceding_text": "assumption that they speak for the entire Church of England. That is absolutely erroneous. I do not myself know of a single member of the Church of England who usually supports the Liberal party, who has in any way ceased in his alliegance to the Liberal party— § Mr. GOULDING What about the Dean of Lincoln? § Mr. HEMMERDE I will take the Dean of Lincoln. Unfortunately I do not know him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Three.\"", "preceding_text": "aid, I do not, as a matter of fact, know of any gentleman who has supported the Liberal party and who has left them upon this question. The Dean of Lincoln did not intervene in a recent by-election, at which I was speaking, but some of the members of his flock showed me letters which he wrote. As a matter of fact, two bishops, at least, of the English Church are in strong support of this measure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: 2618 § \"Wales?\"", "preceding_text": "s a matter of fact, two bishops, at least, of the English Church are in strong support of this measure. [An HON. MEMBER: \"Three.\"] Three, and certainly not the least notable. I can, however, say for myself that I do not in my own short political experience know of a single case of a well-known Liberal who is not strongly in favour of the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church of England. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/05", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/05/clause-1-disestablishment-and", "section": "clause-1-disestablishment-and", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"A Churchman?\"", "preceding_text": ", however, say for myself that I do not in my own short political experience know of a single case of a well-known Liberal who is not strongly in favour of the Disestablishment and Disendowment of the Church of England. [An HON. MEMBER: 2618 § \"Wales?\"] It was merely a slip that I said \"England,\" but my remark would be equally true. I do not know of any prominent Liberal or Labour politician—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": "ers view this with feelings of alarm. Has the right hon. Gentleman also observed that a number of the Amendments in the names of the Chief Secretary and the Postmaster-General stand also in the names of several hon. Members opposite, and will he under the circumstances approach through the usual channels Members on the opposite side so that, if possible, the number of Divisions may be diminished? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "derstand, not by you, but by a Governmental or semi-Governmental department which rents the upper rooms of Carlisle Buildings. Until Home Rule gives us a new unsullied flag, symbolic of that relationship of friendship founded on justice, which only Home Rule can establish between Ireland and Great Britain, our Government departments must, I suppose, do the best they can with the colours in stock. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "ay laugh at that and think it very funny, but it is a distinct statement by a man who in all probability will hold a very important position in the Government of Ireland under this Bill, if it ever becomes law. Here is a statement that you must take to heart:— Until Home Rule gives us a new, unsullied flag. That is an intimation that the old Union Jack is to be taken away and another flag put up. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"The flag will be unsullied.\"", "preceding_text": "s a distinct statement by a man who in all probability will hold a very important position in the Government of Ireland under this Bill, if it ever becomes law. Here is a statement that you must take to heart:— Until Home Rule gives us a new, unsullied flag. That is an intimation that the old Union Jack is to be taken away and another flag put up. [HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"] What else does it mean? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": " that the Union Jack shall be the common flag of England and Ireland in the future as in the past. That is my sole object. Unless it is in the enactment we only have to look at the threats and read the threats of hon. Gentlemen to know that the Union Jack will not be the flag of Ireland, but some other flag. I have here, and I have read them very carefully, thirty cuttings from thirty newspapers. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "tings. I believe I will be in order in reading cuttings § The CHAIRMAN That is a matter for the discretion of the Chair, but I heard the hon. Member say about thirty newspapers. § Mr. HAMERSLEY Of course, I meant cuttings, not newspapers. I am perfectly prepared—and I do not think the Chairman will rule me out of order—to read these cuttings, if hon. Members opposite doubt my statement. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "uring the last twenty years. They have said it is all false and wrong. They ask you to believe them now. If you do believe them now, if they want you to believe them, let them consent to this Clause 803 going into this Act to show that they are really bonâ fide and honest in what they are saying. If they do not consent, then it shows to me that they are not honest in what they have stated. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": ". § Mr. MacVEAGH I know the courtesy which always distinguishes the right hon. Gentleman, and I am quite sure he has no desire to misrepresent me. I made it perfectly clear we in Ireland regard the Union Jack as the Flag of Empire, and shall so regard it under Home Rule; but we claim the right which is claimed by every Colony and every Dominion in the Empire to have our own flag in addition. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "HON MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "y gone, turned into rebels. From the clay of Wolf Tone down to this moment there has been no leader of Nationalist sentiment in Ireland who was not willing and eager to grasp the idea of a separate nationality combined with the Imperial unity, if he had been allowed to do so. Let me come down to this particular Amendment. It seeks to impose, for no reason I know of, some humiliation upon Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "s worth having unless you have the consent of the governed. § Mr. CROFT We were all interested to see the hon. and learned Member for Waterford (Mr. J. Redmond) get up in his place and endeavour to pour oil on very troubled waters, and endeavour to wash out the impression made by the tragic speech which was made by the hon. Member for South Down (Mr. MacVeagh) a little earlier in the Debate. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"So he will; he said so.\"", "preceding_text": "British Empire, and what is good enough for the Dominions overseas is good enough for them. If there is anything in what the hon. and learned Member for Water-ford from time to time has said, and if any of his protestations are true, you would have thought that he would have been only too ready to come alongside all other parts of the Empire and fly that great flag over the Parliament in Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Why use it at all?\"", "preceding_text": "Bill has come into operation—if it ever does so—we do desire to have a symbol of continued unity as proposed in the new Clause moved by my hon. Friend. § Mr. ROBERT HARCOURT I only rise because there has been put into my hand an interesting document in reference to the hon. Member for Christchurch (Mr. Croft). I would not use it if I did not see that the hon. Gentleman is still in his place. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "section": "new-clause-provision-as-to-flying-of", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "still in his place. [An HON. MEMBER: \"Why use it at all?\"] This is a poster which was put on the walls in his constituency during last election. It is headed, \"The Union for ever. Every vote for the Radical means Home Rule for Ireland.\" There was no doubt in his mind about the mandate. It goes on in this way, \"The hauling down of the Union Jack. Vote for Page Croft, and keep the old flag flying.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-saving-of-citizenship", "section": "new-clause-saving-of-citizenship", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "in which we take this Debate. I therefore shall not avail myself of the opportunity given to me by the Noble Lord's speech to get away from the contract which I partially entered into. With all due deference, I cannot accept what the Noble Lord says. I still think the matter of domicile should be nut right on Report. § Mr. WATSON RUTHERFORD In order to save time may I just say a word or two? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-establishment-of-provincial", "section": "new-clause-establishment-of-provincial", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Withdraw.\"", "preceding_text": "ase never occurred. Surely no human being on earth, much less a Member of Parliament, ever before committed himself to such an arrogant denial. § Mr. RAFFAN Arrogance is better than falsehood considerably. § The DEPUTY - CHAIRMAN (Mr. Maclean) I do not think the hon. Member ought to use such an expression as \"falsehood\" in reference to what has been said by an hon. Member in this House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-establishment-of-provincial", "section": "new-clause-establishment-of-provincial", "cue_text": "An HON MEMBER; \"That is not so.\"", "preceding_text": "because it gives point to the Amendment and shows how necessary it is that something of this sort should be done. If further proof were needed of the necessity of some such provision, it would be found in the fact that since local government was introduced into Ireland you will not in the three provinces outside Ulster find any other than Nationalists or Catholics who obtained any representation. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-repeal-of-s-16-of-21-and-32", "section": "new-clause-repeal-of-s-16-of-21-and-32", "cue_text": "An HON MEMBER: \"What about 1882?\"", "preceding_text": "on remains on the Statute Book the Irish Privy Council and the Lord Lieutenant will have that power, and I ask the Committee to take it away from them. Another observation I wish to make is this. The power of suspending habeas corpus in Ireland by a proclamation, although it is on the Statute Book to-day, has certainly never been exercised since the time of the Union in 1800. It has lain dormant. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-repeal-of-s-16-of-21-and-32", "section": "new-clause-repeal-of-s-16-of-21-and-32", "cue_text": "Cheers.", "preceding_text": "otion, or, at any rate, on the 873 suggestion of his Executive, to suspend habeas corpus, and thereby do away with a privilege which every Parliament in the world has fought for for centuries. If there is one instance of the liberty of the subject which is appreciated and which is vital to any well civilised country, it is that there should be the right to bring up people out of prison for trial. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-repeal-of-s-16-of-21-and-32", "section": "new-clause-repeal-of-s-16-of-21-and-32", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "untry, it is that there should be the right to bring up people out of prison for trial. [Cheers.] Very well then, if you agree in that, why do you propose to leave power to deprive them of that power? The suggestion is not to take any such right from the Irish Parliament. If they think fit to do it, they can. The suggestion of the new Clause is to take the power out of the hands of an individual. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "section": "new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "cue_text": "Interruption.", "preceding_text": " was anything but frank of the right hon. Gentleman to suggest that this had no parallel in any Colonial Act, or in any Bill of any subordinate Parliament. Now he says that he knew of this Clause under the Bill of 1893, accepted by Mr. Gladstone, I am exceedingly surprised that the right hon. Gentleman should adopt that tone, and certainly if my hon. Friend goes to a Division I shall support him. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "section": "new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "s to a Division I shall support him. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman who interrupts me, if I remember rightly, has not once contributed anything except interruptions in these Debates, and unless he proposes to contribute something more important than that lie should allow us to proceed. § Mr. JOHN WARD What is more important is that I have had to listen to you, and that is painful enough. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "section": "new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"The Government were already convinced.\"", "preceding_text": " Administration has caused intolerable inconvenience to the British Government, we ought to put this provision into the Bill. My reply was that in no Colonial or Dominion Constitution was there a similar 882 provision. I was dealing with that point alone. As to the Debate in 1893 what occurred was this. A similar Clause was moved by Mr. Hobhouse in a speech which lasted only two or three minutes. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "section": "new-clause-irish-exchequer-to-indemnify", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBEB: \"To save time.\"", "preceding_text": "ive rise to this Clause are purely unreal, imaginary, highly coloured, impossible, and he gave us quite a wealth of adjectives describing the Clause as absurd in substance. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman, does he really think this Clause is absurd and the dangers it aims at avoiding are imaginary? If so, I should like to be informed why Mr. Gladstone and his Law Officers accepted it as right. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/dec/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/dec/12/new-clause-saving-of-rights-of", "section": "new-clause-saving-of-rights-of", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": " on the part of the new Irish Parliament to take place, provided it was done with the consent of the various bodies interested in the university. I thought there was good sense in it, because it occurred to me that in future this great university might itself require some 896 modification of its constitution, and I could see no reason why that power should not be reserved to the Irish Parliament. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/19/mental-deficiency-bill", "section": "mental-deficiency-bill", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "20 is the most important in the Bill:— § \"Any relative or friend—\" § I like the word \"friend\"— § \"of a person alleged to be defective\"— § that is to say whose name appears on a list— § \"and subject to be dealt with under this Act, or an officer of the local authority authorised in that behal—\" § That is a new departure, § \"may make a private application—\" § "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/19/mental-deficiency-bill", "section": "mental-deficiency-bill", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"They may be conducted in private.\"", "preceding_text": "pplication that has to be made, 713 \"Upon the presentation of the petition, and such documents as aforesaid, the judicial authority shall either visit the person to whom the petition relates—\" Of course they would not do that in an ordinary case. \"or summon him to appear before him to show cause why an order should not be made against him.\" He goes. The proceedings again are conducted in private. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/19/mental-deficiency-bill", "section": "mental-deficiency-bill", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"The White Slave Traffic Bill ,\"", "preceding_text": "able time in a new Session to devote to this work. We ought not to be asked to pass legislation of this sort without due consideration and without proper care and knowledge as to what we are really doing. If anyone looks at the Bill they will be surprised. I must say I am accustomed in these days to shocks, and I find cold water running down my back almost every time I take up a Bill and read it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/19", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/19/mental-deficiency-bill", "section": "mental-deficiency-bill", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Pitt,\"", "preceding_text": "osite, and who was a very great man. I disagree with him, but that does not prevent me acknowledging he was a great man. He could not manage his affairs with ordinary prudence, though he had been a great manufacturer. He was constantly in debt and failed in carrying out all his business projects, and had to get £100,000 from his admirers in order to prevent him going bankrupt and being destitute. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/industrial-disputes", "section": "industrial-disputes", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh! oh.\"", "preceding_text": "ct; Lord ROBERT CECIL Has not this subject been before the Government with a view to legislation ever since, at any rate, the beginning of this year and under these circumstances, and seeing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised to deal immediately with this matter, is it reasonable to defer it till May or June of next year? § Mr. McKENNA My right hon. Friend did not say immediately. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/industrial-disputes", "section": "industrial-disputes", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh! oh.\"", "preceding_text": " legislation ever since, at any rate, the beginning of this year and under these circumstances, and seeing that the Chancellor of the Exchequer promised to deal immediately with this matter, is it reasonable to defer it till May or June of next year? § Mr. McKENNA My right hon. Friend did not say immediately. [HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh! oh.\"] § Lord ROBERT CECIL He said, \"the immediate future.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/industrial-disputes", "section": "industrial-disputes", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Wait and see.\"", "preceding_text": "mmons should take instant action to bring this terrible deadlock to an end in the East End of London? § Mr. McKENNA I will report to the Prime Minister the views expressed by my hon. Friend. § Lord ROBERT CECIL Has the right hon. Gentleman considered that strikes are threatened in all directions, as we know from the daily Press, and do the Government really intend to move in the matter? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/class-5-colonial-services", "section": "class-5-colonial-services", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"What about lions?\"", "preceding_text": "velled on in the world which has the same variety. Starting in tropical regions on the coast it rises up at times to an elevation of 8,000 and 9,000 feet above the sea-level. It crosses right under the Equator, that magnificently huge tableland producing in some parts corn and cereals of every description, and in other parts coffee, rubber, and sisal, the raw material for the manufacture of hemp. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/class-8-national-health-insurance", "section": "class-8-national-health-insurance", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "nment Board, as well as by the Treasury, before it can be given. So far as I know, the Local Government Board have not yet prescribed the particular dose of cod-liver oil that is to be given as sanatorium treatment. The right hon. Gentleman also accused us of saying in the dark what we dare not say in the daylight. He accused us of saying something at Crewe which we dare not repeat in this House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/class-8-national-health-insurance", "section": "class-8-national-health-insurance", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Yes.\"", "preceding_text": "hequer was charged with taking 4d. under the pretence of insurance from every working man and spending it in paying £400 to Members of Parliament? Mr. WORTHINGTON-EVANS The right hon. Gentleman, with his usual inaccuracy, has misquoted the poster. He has put words into it which are not in that poster, and hon. Members cheer his statement. I assume hon. Gentlemen opposite know what the poster was. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/29", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/29/privilege", "section": "privilege", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Now.\"", "preceding_text": " to you now or at some future time, because it is necessary to raise this question at the earliest possible moment? Mr. DEPUTY-SPEAKER I can deal with the matter now, if necessary, but I will not count it against him if the hon. Member wishes to defer it until after Questions to-morrow. § Lord ROBERT CECIL I think it will be more convenient to defer it until after § Questions to-morrow. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/30", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/30/east-india-revenue-accounts-indian-budget", "section": "east-india-revenue-accounts-indian-budget", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "old us that the Indian members shared his views and the views of his friends and not those of the Government, and so I may take it that his views and the views of his friends are as we know in favour of a protective system in India. He did not elaborate his points very much, but he did tell us that later on in this Debate there were those behind him who would deal with the subject more in detail. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/30", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/30/east-india-revenue-accounts-indian-budget", "section": "east-india-revenue-accounts-indian-budget", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "ence duty on tea coming from India you at once discriminate against China for a very small consideration, and you strike us in Lancashire in what is one of our very largest and most important markets, namely, the Chinese market. I did not intend raising this subject, but it is one of vital importance to the cotton trade. I had almost been hoping that hon. Gentlemen had dropped this Tariff Reform. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/30", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/30/east-india-revenue-accounts-indian-budget", "section": "east-india-revenue-accounts-indian-budget", "cue_text": "An 1962 HON. MEMBER: \"Who do you mean by 'we'\"?", "preceding_text": "y to obtain men not only with university training but with practical experience as farmers. We contend that this so far from diminishing in the long run the amount of employment for Indians, would increase the cotton supply and thus greatly increase the employment for Indian people. We are most anxious that an increased number of deputy directors should be employed. We also want to draw attention—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jul/30", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jul/30/elementary-school-teachers", "section": "elementary-school-teachers", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Withdraw.\"", "preceding_text": "e. There is no doubt that at the present time a teacher who retires from the service receives a very small pen- 2012 sion indeed, and it would be very hard that teachers who retired in March, 1912, should receive exactly half the pension that a teacher would receive who retired on 1st April. I do not believe the House is really in a fit condition to discuss Bills of this kind at such a late hour. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/parliamentary-papers-recess", "section": "parliamentary-papers-recess", "cue_text": "Avonmouth Light Railway (Revival and Extension of Time) Order, 1912", "preceding_text": "avigation between the two Countries, 21st January, 1887, 3rd to 8th April, 1912; § Light Railways Act, 1896 ,—Copy of an Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, reviving the powers granted by the Avonmouth Light Railway Order, 1903, in relation to the Light Railway and works thereby authorised and extending the period for the completion of the same "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/parliamentary-papers-recess", "section": "parliamentary-papers-recess", "cue_text": "Southend-on-Sea Light Railways (Extensions) Order, 1912", "preceding_text": "; Light Railways Act, 1896 ,—Copy of an Order made by the Light Railway Commissioners, and confirmed by the Board of Trade, authorising the construction of a Light Railway in the borough of Southend-on-Sea, in the county of Essex, in extension of the Light Railways authorised by the Southend-on-Sea and District Light Railways Orders, 1899 to 1909, and amending those Orders, and for other purposes "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "section": "class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "ticular Department, probably one of the most extravagant Departments of the administration, among such varied purposes as repair of buildings, the improvement of Chancery and State Room furniture, the maintenance of gardens, and the maintenance and renewal of plate, and then bringing in such matters as fees to architects, without telling us the class of architects or of what nationality they are. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "section": "class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: 28 \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "sponsibilities and pay the sum as it becomes due in respect of these particular buildings. I do not presume to detain the Committee any longer, because there are other Members more qualified than I am to discuss these questions, and also because I hope that hon. Members on the opposite side will break through that rule of silence which Appears to be imposed upon them in regard to these estimates. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "section": "class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "cause I hope that hon. Members on the opposite side will break through that rule of silence which Appears to be imposed upon them in regard to these estimates. [HON. MEMBERS: 28 \"No, no.\"] I am only referring to the general course of these Debates on previous occasions—for it has certainly been characteristic that most of the criticisms in regard to public expenditure has come from these benches. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "section": "class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBERS: \"It is receipts, not expenditure.\"", "preceding_text": "ext item is \"China rents,\" referring, no doubt, to the country, not to the substance, but the item is ambiguous, and I should be glad to know what China rents, amounting to £3,835, really are. Then as to Appropriations-in-Aid, \"rents, sale of old materials, etc.,\" £l,238. I can understand how rent is an expenditure, but it is difficult to understand how the sale of old material is an expenditure. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "section": "class-i-diplomatic-and-consular-buildings", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "iture upon a new house at Therapia. As a matter of fact, a fire occurred in the Agent's House at Therapia, and I would like to know if, when a house is burnt down, the Noble Lord 37 thinks it is a suitable place for the British Ambassador to reside in? § Lord A. THYNNE That is not what I questioned. What I criticised was the expenditure of £20,200 upon a house which was not a main residence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/royal-parks-and-pleasure-gardens", "section": "royal-parks-and-pleasure-gardens", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"The Zoo.\"", "preceding_text": " national service. I quite agree, and the proposal is not that the whole of this Vote should be put upon local ratepayers, but only such part as refers to the London parks. It may be said that people come in from other places and enjoy the parks. But what parks do they enjoy? St. James's Park, the Green Park, and a small part of Hyde Park perhaps, but what visitor to London goes to Regent's Park? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/west-riding-of-yorkshire-asylums-bill", "section": "west-riding-of-yorkshire-asylums-bill", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": "ing them to support this method. When you get many authorities the tendency is for an authority to champion its own particular sphere. I do not blame them. My sympathies lie largely with the guardians, because I am a guardian. My sympathy is with my own class, who are giving time and ungrudging service to the community. The fact that this Bill incidentally seems to put a stigma upon the guardians—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/jun/04", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/jun/04/west-riding-of-yorkshire-asylums-bill", "section": "west-riding-of-yorkshire-asylums-bill", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Six county boroughs.\"", "preceding_text": "o provide and manage asylums. This Bill does not contain the slightest suggestion to in any way alter the duties, powers, and responsibilities of any existing authority. Its proposals might be summed up almost in one sentence. At present in the West Riding there is a voluntary arrangement between the county councils 100 and the seven county boroughs existing within the area of the county councils "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/personal-explanation", "section": "personal-explanation", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"That is liberty.\"", "preceding_text": "lleged that I attempted to mislead this House on an important question of fact, I desire to submit a statement of the case in order that the House itself may judge my action. Following the strike of August last, the executive committee, at their September sitting, decided to instruct the trustees to foreclose mortgages of those members who were not loyal to the executive committee's instructions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/personal-explanation", "section": "personal-explanation", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "rmation as to the action these members took up during the strike. The trustees then would be in a position to consider each case with the full information before them. The result of the letter shows that there were ninety-two members affected by this resolution, and, on the trustees reporting the full facts to the executive committee the latter body decided that no further action should be taken. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "hand, I know it would interfere with an enormous number of arrangements that have been made by a good many people if there were a disturbance of the programme for that particular day. We might, of course, if right hon. and hon. Gentlemen prefer it, take the Supplementary and 1546 Ways and Means Reports after Five o'clock on Friday and introduce the Consolidated Fund Bill and read it a first time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Before.\"", "preceding_text": "far as the Navy is concerned, I think it is hardly necessary to take quite as many Votes as he has put down, and I would suggest the number should be reduced. In addition to that, if the House agree to this very drastic treatment of the Navy Vote, I think it is not unreasonable for us to ask him that the general discussion on the Navy, which we do not have now, shall come immediately after Easter—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/business-of-the-house", "section": "business-of-the-house", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": "areful consideration of the principles of the Coal Mines Bill . But I should be very sorry, personally, that the House of Lords should 1548 not have that Bill before them as early as Friday. There are important interests very well represented in that House who are well competent to speak on this matter, and it would be rather hard on them if they were forced to discuss it at a Saturday's sitting. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/navy-estimates-1912-13", "section": "navy-estimates-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Annually?\"", "preceding_text": "ndard, it is over seventeen to ten, but that is the least which will maintain a 60 per cent, standard, and that is what we have had in our minds when we framed the Estimates which are now presented to the House of Commons. If we are now, as it would seem, and as I fear it is certain to be, confronted with an addition of two ships to German construction 1557 in the next six years—two \"Dreadnoughts—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/navy-estimates-1912-13", "section": "navy-estimates-1912-13", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": "sufficient. Then take the test of expenditure. For the purpose of comparing our Estimates with foreign Estimates there are so many factors which enter into ours that have no corresponding factors in theirs, that the only fair test is to take the amount of money spent upon new construction and armament. Taking that alone, we have in the last three years spent £41,000,000, while Germany and Austria—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/navy-estimates-1912-13", "section": "navy-estimates-1912-13", "cue_text": "Laughter.", "preceding_text": "tesmanlike way. I will read directly the effect of what he put in his statement. What the effect of his words to-day will be in Germany I do not know, but the whole thing could have been avoided if the right hon. Gentleman had made out his Estimates on the question of Imperial defence and loft Germany alone altogether. I have always said it was a mistake ever bringing Germany into such questions. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/navy-estimates-1912-13", "section": "navy-estimates-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": " know, but the whole thing could have been avoided if the right hon. Gentleman had made out his Estimates on the question of Imperial defence and loft Germany alone altogether. I have always said it was a mistake ever bringing Germany into such questions. [Laughter.] Hon. Members may laugh, but it is our country that causes all the irritation in Germany. We begin it, and I will prove it directly. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/navy-estimates-1912-13", "section": "navy-estimates-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh.\"", "preceding_text": " and I call the attention of the House to them. Can anybody deny we were predominant all over the world ten years ago, and that our naval bases were excellent? I saw two of them last year without any guns and with grass growing on the platforms; there were no troops there, machinery which had cost £58,000 had been sold, the spanners, the straps, and the bellows had been sold, and sold for nothing£"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/mar/18", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/mar/18/navy-estimates-1912-13", "section": "navy-estimates-1912-13", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh.\"", "preceding_text": "nd guns were taken out. Is it a sensible thing to reduce your garrisons? I tell you you will have a serious time if you get war. If you are strong enough you will not get war, but I say we were stronger ten years ago than we are now. The right hon. Gentleman in his speech just now spoke of \"looking ahead.\" What is he looking ahead at? In January, 1915, Germany can have twenty-four \"Dreadnoughts.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO, no.\"", "preceding_text": ". E. SMITH I cannot give away again to the hon. Member. They rejected Disestablishment unless Disestablishment was coupled with Disendowment. I will undertake to say that everybody who has been authorised to speak on behalf of Welsh Nonconformity in all these years of controversy has openly avowed that they would not look at Disestablishment unless Disestablishment were coupled with Disendowment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh, oh!\"", "preceding_text": "o centuries it was wallowing in the slough of perdition. To anyone but the Chancellor of the Exchequer it would be a sufficient answer that we usually legislate in the High Court of Parliament—to 811 use his own expression—in relation to contemporary demerits, and not in punitive correction of the wrongs of centuries ago. The Prime Minister, in elevated language, recognised the Christian devotion—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": " been actuated by the most petty and spiteful motives. On 25th April I told the House what the Archbishop of Canterbury said about that, and I do not wish to repeat it; but I wish hon. Gentlemen who belong to the Church to bear it in mind. As a matter of fact, the position now is that the Opposition, in addition to all the other monopolies, claim a monopoly of honesty of conviction in this House. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"What are they?\"", "preceding_text": "at the Church has legal, political and social privileges. Does anyone doubt that the State exercises control over the Church? I suppose no one disputes that. It is the combination of the privileges of the Church and the control of the State which make up the status of the Establishment. Against that status we protest. We are proposing in this Bill as far as Wales to do away with these privileges. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"What harm?\"", "preceding_text": "bination of the privileges of the Church and the control of the State which make up the status of the Establishment. Against that status we protest. We are proposing in this Bill as far as Wales to do away with these privileges. [HON. MEMBERS: \"What are they?\"] First of all as to the legal privileges of the Church. The law of the Church is incorporated in the law of the land. Is that a privilege? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"With the consent of the Church.\"", "preceding_text": "ere with the Church? § Mr. F. E. SMITH I made that observation in exclusive relation to the dismemberment proposals of the Bill. It had no connection with Disestablishment or Disendowment. § Mr. ELLIS GRIFFITH I will limit it, then, to dismemberment. Does the right hon. Gentleman not know that dioceses have already been dismembered by this House? Six new bishoprics have been carved out. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO, no.\"", "preceding_text": "y do suggest that those are examples where the money might be better spent even by the Church itself. The right hon. Gentleman spoke about slums in the East End. It is really a very peculiar feature about the Church in Wales that where it does social work in Wales it has no endowments to work upon. They work without any endowments at all 829 and on the voluntary efforts of those who support them. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"More.\"", "preceding_text": " the Church in Wales and Nonconformity respectively can be brought out very well by seeing what the Church and chapels do for Welsh people in large towns. Hon. Members opposite cannot say it is irrelevant because the two Welsh Churches in London have got a statutory endowment of £350 per year each. In London there are four churches of the Church of England and nearly twenty Nonconformist chapels. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Name, name.\"", "preceding_text": "o address many meetings, and I have found, in dealing with this matter, that they have been fair and open-minded. I really believe if this question were properly put before them you would not get this continual voting, without much consideration of the subject, in favour of Disestablishment. There are many of the most eminent divines among the Nonconformists who are not in favour of Disendowment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"They are not like you.\"", "preceding_text": "tter, that they have been fair and open-minded. I really believe if this question were properly put before them you would not get this continual voting, without much consideration of the subject, in favour of Disestablishment. There are many of the most eminent divines among the Nonconformists who are not in favour of Disendowment. [HON. MEMBERS: \"Name, name.\"] I do not propose to give them away. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": " has existed for centuries as the Church in England and Wales. It seems most unreasonable to separate the two or to dismember the Church piecemeal. The chief object in this piecemeal dismemberment is that it is intended as a blow at the Church of England as a whole. The right hon. Gentleman's third point was that if Disestablishment took place, it would be a message of peace to all denominations. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": " financial powers when she has ceased to be the representative Church as by law established. I do not think that can be seriously maintained as a constituent part of this great controversy. Then it is suggested that this measure is unjust, that it is robbery, that it is the 879 outcome of a spirit of great hostility and uncharitableness on the part of Nonconformists in Wales to the Establishment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": "t is also said that in the diocese of St. David's, out of 371 parishes, there are no less than 130 where there is no resident Nonconformist minister. In a large number of parishes in Wales there exists no resident Nonconformist minister, and I maintain that for the proper ministration of religion and for the proper care of souls in a parish a resident minister of religion is absolutely essential. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"They are not established.\"", "preceding_text": "ith the other bodies grouped together, but any one of those bodies is a minority as compared with the Church and the other religious bodies grouped together. What is the charge against the Church? That she has not covered the ground of the whole Welsh nation. If that is what she is to be punished for why not punish all the other Churches, none of which have covered the ground of the whole nation? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Toeing the line.\"", "preceding_text": " of the public demand of the Non-conformists of Wales. It is bred in the bone in all their public life and all their private life. The Government have but responded to the demand of the Welsh people, and the Welsh Members are putting forward a demand which is such that if they were not putting it forward they would soon cease to be Welsh Members, and other men would be found to take their places. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/may/13", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/may/13/established-church-wales-bill-1", "section": "established-church-wales-bill-1", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": "curate or other person are disregarded, I am confident that the Government will accept an Amendment on the subject. All life interests are safeguarded. We are guarding the rights of the public. The Noble Lord kindly said the rights of all the people. The Nonconformists of Wales have a right to their share of the use of these funds, which were allocated years ago to the use of the people of Wales. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/war-in-balkans", "section": "war-in-balkans", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBEBS: \"NO, no.\"", "preceding_text": "REY It was not a question of being too late in Tripoli. When countries go to war, and as a result one country annexes by conquest the territory of the other, that territory passes absolutely to the other country and neutral countries cannot make stipulations unless they are prepared to dispute the terms of peace and to assert their rights by force of arms. § Mr. JOYNSON-HICKS Might I suggest—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"What Section prevents that?\"", "preceding_text": "ided for in Clause 15, Sub-section (1), paragraph ( a ). Thirdly, the Irish Parliament is not allowed to effect any differentiation in the duties. They may not, for example, take the Tea Duty and say, \"We will impose an addition to Chinese tea and not an addition to Ceylon tea,\" and so embark on questions of so-called Tariff Reform, and establish for themselves any measure of Imperial preference. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"He has been here\" and \"Bring him in.\"", "preceding_text": "d complicated matter. No Government is the stronger for having its finance subject to the disability of a federal Constitution, and Governments only submit to that necessity because it is a necessity. Now, without any necessity, we are invited to take these difficulties upon ourselves. I really think the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to be here when we are discussing the finance of this Bill. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "transferred reserved service. They may manage any Irish debt if they like, and they must make an estimate of the true revenue, the very thing which the Primrose Committee says that to do correctly passes the wit of man. § Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL indicated dissent. § Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN Have you not at the present time Customs Returns as to the trade between Ireland and the United Kingdom? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "aving regard to the surplus he possesses and to the needs of his own people, decides to abolish the Tea Duty and, we will say, to halve the Tobacco Duty. What becomes of the Irish taxes? The moment the British Tea Duty is withdrawn the Irish Tea Duty is illegal and cannot be levied. 1515 The moment the British Tobacco Taxis reduced the Irish additional tax exceeds the limits provided by this Bill."}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: 1517 \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "protection to Irish industries? I do not think so. It is quite true they say they have provided partly by a Clause and partly by an Amendment, which I understand has been put down to make the Clause clear, and which I hope does make it clear to anybody who has tried to read it—at any rate I understand the Government, contention is that the Irish Parliament cannot put on a protective Customs Duty. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": " AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN Then will you tell us what you did say? § Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL We are speaking of quite different things. A bounty is a Grant which is given for the purposes of export. § Mr. AUSTEN CHAMBERLAIN Not necessarily. § Mr. HERBERT SAMUEL Certainly it is, in the ordinary use of the term. A bounty is a Grant which is given to persons who export goods to foreign countries. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBKBS: \"NO, no!\"", "preceding_text": "eemed to estimate that they would cost another £600,000. § Mr. JONATHAN SAMUEL No, the right hon. Gentleman is wrong. § Mr. HAYES FISHER I have the Report here. If hon. Members will turn to it they w ill find it very distinctly stated there that for many years to come there will be a very large increase in the amount of money that is required to be found for old age pensions in Ireland. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "on as individuals. It is true that when that argument was advanced earlier in the day the Postmaster-General interrupted and said that Ireland was not to be considered as if she were a county of England, and that it was just in her case to inquire what her total contribution was, although it would be absurd to inquire what was the contribution of East Anglia to the taxation of the United Kingdom. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"They sometimes destroy the body.\"", "preceding_text": "per and feed up the Irish taxpayer, not with miserable bawbees, which the hon. Member for Cork referred to, but millions, at least two millions, a growing two millions, while the hon. Member has just shown infinite possibilities to the Irish taxpayer. I think we should have done better to allow these two conflicting schools of criticism to destroy each other like conflicting microbes in the body. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Land.\"", "preceding_text": "abandoned it. Why on earth should it be assumed that Ireland would not accept what every other State in a federal community throughout the world has accepted? I would ask my hon. Friends who are doubtful as to the expediency of giving Ireland the power to raise any Customs Duty within the very strict limits of this Bill, what other method they would 1576 suggest by which they could raise revenue. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"It is in regard to Customs.\"", "preceding_text": "t it was a perfectly fair method of raising revenue. I am not suggesting it, but I am sure it is a method which has been discovered by previous Governments. Why should that be an injustice to Great Britain? It is said, \"If you do that, you are allowing Ireland something that you could not possibly allow Scotland and Wales.\" Do hon. Members imagine that uniformity is essential to a federal scheme? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO, no.\"", "preceding_text": "l England is treated unfairly by voting a tribute of money over which she has no control. He says these are mutually destructive criticisms, the one microbe destroying the other. The right hon. Gentleman has the advantage because he has the two microbes in his own person. He told us this Bill was very good for England, and he proved that we were giving too little to his own complete satisfaction. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBEIJS: \"Oh, oh!\" and interruptions.", "preceding_text": ". It is not merely an advantage from that point of view, but it is a very great advantage even to the revenue, because a good part of these wages are spent on commodities on which duty is paid, and we get back the money of which we have control, and which has been spent under our direction. I admit that if under Home Rule she develops to the same extent as she would have developed under the Union—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Of course we do.\"", "preceding_text": "ould have developed under the Union—[HON. MEMBEIJS: \"Oh, oh!\" and interruptions.] I have not a great deal of time, and I would suggest that I should be allowed to proceed. I will take up the interruption from below the Gangway. I do not pay any attention to hon. Gentlemen opposite, but I do pay regard to the views of hon. Gentlemen below the Gangway. Do they deny that Ireland has improved? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/financial-resolution", "section": "financial-resolution", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"NO.\"", "preceding_text": "desired Protection they could have it. The Irish people have desired it in the past; they desired it at the time of Gratton's Parliament to such an extent that, if I am not mistaken, they broke into the Assembly and turned out the members because they would not put on protective duties against England, and Mr. Parnell always said he would never accept Home Rule which did not give them that right. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Agreed.\"", "preceding_text": " Bill. I would suggest that the first Sub-section of my hon. Friend's Amendment with the verbal alteration which he has made should be accepted upon the sole ground that in a case of this kind when a woman is equally guilty with a man she ought to be subjected to a penalty. § Mr. BOOTH The same penalty? § Mr. McKENNA As to the question of flogging we will have something to say later on. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": ". The Amendment proposes after male person to insert \"or female,\" and to insert \"every male or female person.\" To give a concrete example, suppose the mother of the prostitute lives wholly or in part on the earnings of prostitution, she, of course, would commit an offence under this Act, and would be liable, on a first offence, to the punishment indicated, and on the second offence to be flogged. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Where?\"", "preceding_text": "ing. § Mr. LEE I think there is some misunderstanding with regard to this Amendment. I think my hon. and learned Friend is quite right in what he says as to the effect of the Amendment as it stands. I understand a consequential Amendment has been handed in, which would exempt females from any punishment of flogging. § Mr. BRYCE It is on the Paper. § Mr. LEE I understand that is so. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "t seems to be a hash culled from the words of the Amendment. So far as I can make out the hon. Member is dealing with a Section in the Vagrancy Act, 1898 ; that section by reference to the Vagrancy Act of 1824, imposes the penalty of flogging, not as the hon. Member is going to leave out, on the \"male,\" and the natural sequence of leaving out the word \"male\" is that the \"female\" will be included. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": " to withdraw this confusing Amendment, and give us something which the ordinary Member of the House can understand. § Mr. McKENNA I think the real point at issue now is as to whether a female shall be deemed to be guilty of an offence if she acts as a procuress or lives upon the earnings of a prostitute. That is the only point. I think the House is agreed that we do not want to flog a woman. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBEES: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "anding. So far, as I can understand the answer of Mr. Speaker to the hon. Member for Merthyr (Mr. Keir Hardie), that misunderstanding is cleared away. If the Amendment is now withdrawn by the hon. Member (Mr. Bryce), we can proceed with the Clause, and all the Amendments now upon the Paper can be discussed, and at a later stage; Mr. Speaker having left it quite open, we can resume the discussion. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/07", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/07/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Where?\"", "preceding_text": "that misunderstanding is cleared away. If the Amendment is now withdrawn by the hon. Member (Mr. Bryce), we can proceed with the Clause, and all the Amendments now upon the Paper can be discussed, and at a later stage; Mr. Speaker having left it quite open, we can resume the discussion. [HON. MEMBEES: \"No.\"] We can resume the discussion on an Amendment which is similar, if not in identical terms. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/field-artillery-brigade-horses", "section": "field-artillery-brigade-horses", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Oh!\"", "preceding_text": " years. It is part of the principle. I can say that the horses will be forthcoming. § Mr. LEE May I ask whether this applies to brigades which would have to accompany any Expeditionary Force, and, if so, are they ready to go with the majority of the trained horses in the campaign? § Colonel SEELY The arrangements made are just the same as they were when the hon. Gentleman was in office. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/thorney-island-estate", "section": "thorney-island-estate", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "rchase of part of his Thorney estate as an investment for land revenue moneys. These negotiations were very fully explained by my Noble Friend in another place on the 1st December, 1909, and I would refer the hon. Member to the official Report of what he then said. 1811 Mr. FRED HALL Will the right hon. Gentleman reply to the second part of my question? § Mr. RUNCIMAN I have already replied. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Adjourn, adjourn,\" and \"We will kill your Bill if you go on.\"", "preceding_text": "eal to hon. Members opposite. This Bill as a matter of fact is on the Order Paper to-day, and the only question was at what hour it should be taken. I am sure that hon. Members do not suggest that it would be more for the convenience of the House that the Bill should be taken at half-past ten at night than that we should proceed with it now, at a convenient hour, and when there is plenty of time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": "s right. § Mr. KING I ask to be allowed to withdraw this Amendment. I think it would facilitate our procedure if I am allowed to withdraw. § Mr. WEDGWOOD Before this Amendment is withdrawn I want some assurance from the promoters that some similar Amendment will not find its way back again into the Bill. § Mr. CHARLES CRAIG On a point of Order. Has not the Amendment been withdrawn? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"You are wrong.\"", "preceding_text": "could prove that he was not living upon the woman he would be convicted, and there is no doubt that it would amount to this, that the poor man prima facie is guilty. § Mr. McKENNA That is not the case. It is exactly the opposite. § 6.0 P.M § Mr. J. WARD The Home Secretary has a most unfortunate method of describing the Bill and explaining its provisions, for I understood him to say—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "sirous of punishing, what punishment he desires to inflict, and to whom the infliction of those penalties is to be entrusted. § Mr. McKENNA I stated that I supposed the House agrees to accept the Amendment which comes later on the Paper in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Peterborough (Mr. George Greenwood). The effect of the acceptance of that Amendment will be to remove all doubt. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Not unjustly, illegally.\"", "preceding_text": "e makes it almost impossible for the poor man to escape. He cannot employ lawyers; he cannot understand the law even as we understand it now after some hours of discussion; and he is unable to put up the best possible defence. In cases such as those where you are increasing the penalty, and changing the law, and where you admit that people have been actually flogged unjustly in the past fortnight—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Who was the hon. Member?\"", "preceding_text": "e skin break; he had heard the dull thud of the lash as it fell on the blood-soddened flesh; and he was glad of having the opportunity of making his voice heard against it to-day and trusted that nothing would induce the Government to retain under any conditions such a brutal punishment. § Mr. H. K. NEWTON Where did that flogging take place? § Mr. MOLTENO That was inflicted in the Army. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": "t what becomes of him? He is sent to the infirmary. Why? To heal, and to allay the fever which any attack upon the nerves is bound to produce. One single blow of Anything like that would be bound to raise the temperature, as any medical man knows. How long does that man suffer? For four or five or six days. You have no right to inflict that punishment upon anyone, I do not care what his crime is. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "as to the number of strokes or the nature of the instrument, and it might be inflicted upon a man convicted three times for vagrancy The other Act was passed in 1893 a period of panic in 1863 because one of the Members of this House had been garrotted in St. James's Park. Those are the only two. Our complaint against the Home Secretary is that he, for the first time, is extending this punishment. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"And get it.\"", "preceding_text": " displaying exactly what the feeling is. They do not merely want to flog, but they want to burn or bury them alive. The hon. Member for Woolwich has brought forward an entirely new theory with regard to punishment. He says punishment is voluntary, because, if you do not commit the offence, you do not get the punishment; but if you commit the offence knowing what the punishment is, you ask for it. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "ill not have equality. The really hardened bad man 1896 will feel the punishment less than the better man to whom a different punishment might have done some good. Furthermore, this punishment cannot stop here. Why on earth, if you are going to have flogging for the offence dealt with in this Bill should you not have flogging for raping a little child? Could anything be more abominable than that? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Suffragettes.\"", "preceding_text": "a little child? Could anything be more abominable than that? [HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"] That offence was debated here and a very large majority decided not to inflict flogging for that offence. Once you commence the infliction of flogging you are bound to go on with it. If for this offence, why not for indecent assaults against women, and anything in which you say flogging will be a deterrent? "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Hear, hear.\"", "preceding_text": "ence, and he was ordered to be flogged, because, I suppose, though T do not know, it was the idea of the learned judge that all who were found guilty by the jury of robbery with violence should, without discrimination, be so punished to deter others from following in their footsteps. I submit with all the earnestness of which I am capable that man ought never to have been sentenced to be flogged. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"There is no comparison.\"", "preceding_text": "of the evil with which we have to deal. I ask the House to compare the indignation which is expressed on these benches in connection with the evils of the white slave traffic with the excitement in this House and the steps that are taken, with the unanimous desire of all Members, when two hundred or three hundred members of the wealthy class are drowned in such a disaster as befell the \"Titanic.\" "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Hand them over to probation officers.\"", "preceding_text": "nce to which it is proposed that it should be applied, in order that we may stop the evil. It is not a question of whether flogging is a good thing or whether flogging is not a 1918 good thing, and it is well to observe a sense of proportion between the crime committed and the punishment inflicted. Not one of those hon. Members who say that flogging is a bad thing, have suggested anything better. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Who pays for their bodies?\"", "preceding_text": "he sweater who pays low wages. MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE The hon. Member talks about low wages, but those who have studied the subject know that low wages have probably less to do with it than almost anything else. § Mr. W. THORNE The high prices some people pay for their bodies. MARQUESS of TULLIBARDINE I quite agree, the high prices people pay for their bodies. We want to get at the people. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"At Quarter Sessions?\"", "preceding_text": "unishment. Under the existing law prior to this Bill, and following the practice of the Courts which did administer flogging for offences under the Vagrancy Act, 1898 , this defence of having visible means of subsistence having been struck out of the Act of 1898, without this Amendment or any other alteration of the law, it would have been open to magistrates to inflict flogging for this offence. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"For a second offence? \"", "preceding_text": "s Bill, and following the practice of the Courts which did administer flogging for offences under the Vagrancy Act, 1898 , this defence of having visible means of subsistence having been struck out of the Act of 1898, without this Amendment or any other alteration of the law, it would have been open to magistrates to inflict flogging for this offence. [An HON. MEMBER: \"At Quarter Sessions?\"] Yes. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": " it were in response to the ordinary temptations from which men suffer, if it were the temptations to which the burglar, or even the murderer, are subject, I would have a certain amount of agreement with hon. Members who opposed flogging in these cases. I dislike flogging intensely. I can assure hon. Members—I know that those who disagree; from me think I am acting wrongly and will not believe me—"}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No, no.\"", "preceding_text": ". I very much doubt if this House could reclaim them. There are people whose mission in the world it is to do all they can for these people; to try to show them the error of their ways. It is not the mission of the House of Commons. These men are cowards, and you must make them feel something to realise what they have done. There are many protagonists for these men on the other side of the House— "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "e question is, are we enacting the minimum amount of punishment consistent with acting as a deterrent. That is the function of this Amendment. Someone asked, Why not flog women? That would be a violation of the principle I have enunciated that you want to inflict the minimum amount of punishment consistent with acting as a deterrent. Women are deterred from crimes by a lesser punishment than men. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"", "preceding_text": "igation when they fall into the hands of the law. § Mr. McKENNA This question obviously is precisely the same in substance as the one which was put on the Friday before last, and on which a Division was taken as to flogging for a first offence. It was I carried by the narrow majority of four. It 1941 has since been stated that a number of hon. Members who voted then voted in the wrong Lobby. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"There was no doubt about it.\"", "preceding_text": "substance as the one which was put on the Friday before last, and on which a Division was taken as to flogging for a first offence. It was I carried by the narrow majority of four. It 1941 has since been stated that a number of hon. Members who voted then voted in the wrong Lobby. [HON. MEMBERS: \"No.\"] Certainly there is some degree of doubt as to what the intention of the House was at that time. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"Why?\"", "preceding_text": "what is the intention of the House with regard to this point, and I would respectfully submit to the House that the merits of the question have been very fully discussed. Perhaps I might be allowed to say, as a personal explanation only, that on the last occasion, though I was not here, I should certain, if I had been here, have voted for flogging being administered only on the second conviction. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "An HON. MEMBER: \"The sheep went wrong yesterday.\"", "preceding_text": "ors. When they imposed flogging under the Act of 1824, they imposed it only for the second conviction, and again that was done under the Statute passed in 1898. On the merits of the case we ought to be super-careful that no person who is wrongly convicted should be flogged. The hon. Member (Mr. Gershom Stewart) referred to the sheep dog. The sheep dog never makes a mistake in regard to his sheep. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "section": "clause-6-amendments-of-61-62-vict-c-39", "cue_text": "HON. MEMBERS: \"Rich men.\"", "preceding_text": "int. In the Garrotting Act , into the merits of which I do not wish to enter, flogging was provided for the first offence. I would also remind him that since the Garrotting Act was passed in 1863 the Court of Criminal Appeal has been set up, and if a person is wrongly convicted he has the right of appeal to that Court. In that way the risk of wrong conviction has been very 1942 greatly decreased. "}
{"kind": "bracketed_cue_html", "date": "commons/1912/nov/12", "house": "commons", "url": "https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1912/nov/12/education-department-scotland-1", "section": "education-department-scotland-1", "cue_text": "An HON MEMBER: \"You voted against the Government.\"", "preceding_text": "s, and more especially when this question of devolution is in the air, I strongly hold that there is a great opportunity for the Secretary for Scotland to take up a special line for himself, and to insist upon the claims of Scotland being more prominently put forward than they are at present. What the Secretary for Scotland says on the platform is vastly different from what he says in this House. "}